dgravlin
New Member
Posts:8
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26 Nov 2007 12:37 AM |
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I am building a SIP house and I intend to install at least one ERV. Does anyone have experience with any ERVs that they'd recommend?
Thanks,
Dave
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Buntly
Basic Member
Posts:162
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26 Nov 2007 08:50 AM |
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I've used aprilaire (link) in 4 icf homes. Installed 2 in the attic and the other 2 in the basement. No problems thus far.
Good Luck.
Bunt |
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Bunt |
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dgravlin
New Member
Posts:8
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26 Nov 2007 08:55 AM |
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That's one of the units I am looking at (model 8100, I think).
Renewaire has an extensive product line - has anyone used their units?
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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26 Nov 2007 04:39 PM |
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Posted By dgravlin on 11/26/2007 12:37 AM I am building a SIP house and I intend to install at least one ERV. Does anyone have experience with any ERVs that they'd recommend?
Thanks,
Dave
Dave; I have used the Renewaire EV-130 on my own home with a percentage timer and on 4 other projects LINK |
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Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Dakers
New Member
Posts:25
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16 Dec 2007 12:57 PM |
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You can use an ERV to ventilate bathrooms [as long as it is approved by the manufacturer], eliminating the need for bath fans, their noise and maintenance. You need continous ventilation in a SIP's style home if it is constructed with a tight envelope. The ERV will accomplish this at a greatly reduced cost and eliminate the losses of bath fans. Plus, it will not allow for a negative pressure on the home if it is balanced properly.
If you use an ERV for ventilating bathrooms, since it is continous ventilation, you actually need less volume [CFMs/]. |
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epstructures
New Member
Posts:15
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16 Dec 2007 07:41 PM |
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Dave, Also getting ready to start construction on new home and have chosen the Lifebreath Clean Air Furnace. It integrates HRV and HVAC systems that also provides heat by way of a hydronic coil and also conventional air conditioning. An add on HRV is not necessary. LINK |
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amcrea
New Member
Posts:2
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18 Dec 2007 04:49 AM |
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Dave -
I have built 2 SIPS homes that have LifeBreath brand HRV in them - both have performed very well.
Good luck,
Andy McRea
McRea Partners Inc
Dealer/Installer - Enercept SIPS
Washington State
425-941-1626 |
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Road Block
New Member
Posts:67
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18 Dec 2007 08:21 AM |
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Are there any companies to avoid? The things seem pretty simple and looks like you'd have to work at making a bad unit or is there more to them than it seems? |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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18 Dec 2007 08:57 AM |
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Make sure you are buying one large enough to accomodate the size of your home |
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Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Dakers
New Member
Posts:25
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18 Dec 2007 03:56 PM |
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You want to change about one third of the volume of air in the house per hour in most cases. Properly installed, they all work fine. Some combine a HEPA filter with them. |
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John in the OC
Basic Member
Posts:106
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18 Dec 2007 06:58 PM |
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This is our 1st SIP home. We're in a moderate climate (Southern Cal). I understand some HVR's are absorbing the bath air and moisture however it does not seem to be a very logical system (on timer or intermittent but not while someone is showing... Does anyone know if there is a low voltage motion sensor to turn on the system while someone is in the shower? Guess it would have to sense that it is on or off as not to double trigger Also re: post "ENERGY RECOVERY VENTILATORS by Dakers You want to change about one third of the volume of air in the house per hour " is that correct? Didn't think it was that high but again this is my 1st SIP home....
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alaskabuilder
New Member
Posts:14
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25 Dec 2007 03:22 AM |
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dgravlin,
I do not know the IMC section, but the relevant 2006 IRC listing is M1506.2 -[Exhaust air from bathrooms and toilet rooms shall not be recirculated within a residence or to another dwelling unit and shall be exhausted directly to the outdoors. Exhaust air from bathrooms and toilet rooms shall not discharge into an attic, crawl space, or other areas inside the building.]
If I recall correctly, the Honeywell 200 series is an ERV that has a separate flow side for exhausting bath areas directly to the outside per code. There are probably others, since most HRVs/ERVs are made by just 2-3 manufacturers and relabeled by the HVAC company. I do know that some HRVs/ERVs exhaust bath air and partial some of it back into the house recirc air and some to the outdoors.
This doesn't matter if: You don't have an AHJ who is going to bust you on it - and You have a half-way decent filtration system - or You just ain't that picky...
Otherwise, make sure that the HRV/ERV system you choose has no physical pathway for the bath exhaust to interact directly with recirc air, or use fans.
Fans can introduce problems with negative pressurization of a tight structure, and then you get to play with motorized dampers, control integration with the HRV/ERV, or holes in the bathroom wall for makeup air, so it can definitely be cost-effective to use the HRV... Good Luck! |
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Fred H
New Member
Posts:4
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31 Dec 2007 09:14 PM |
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I have always wondered about ventilation needs in a new home. While it makes sense to ventilate an old home with lots of toxic contaminants, why would you ventilate a new one unless you are putting in contaminants. Take for example a warm, humid climate without gas appliances. Indoor air quality is primarily a concern with the following: Asbestos - should not be an issue Carbon Monoxide, Nitrogen Oxide - should not be an issue with no gas burning devices Formaldehyde - I am not sure of all the components going into the house, but should be able to limit it significantly Household chemicals - we can control this and do. Microorganisms, allergens and mold - Of these, the only one I worry about is mold, which might even be worse if higher humidity air is brought in. If humidity in the house is controlled, this should not be an issue. Pesticides - we can control this Radon - not an issue in this area as far as I am aware otherwise we should probably vent below the foundation, Tobacco - will not be an issue So, my question is, do you need to ventilate beyond spot ventilation of the showers and range? I know what ASHRAE says and I know of at least one ASHRAE Board member who agrees with my reasoning. My question is whether there is any science behind these recommendations. I have yet to see any? Fred
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PanelCrafters
Advanced Member
Posts:680
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31 Dec 2007 10:01 PM |
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Posted By Fred H on 12/31/2007 9:14 PM I know what ASHRAE says and I know of at least one ASHRAE Board member who agrees with my reasoning. My question is whether there is any science behind these recommendations. I have yet to see any? FWIW here's what the experts say. |
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....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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Dick Mills
Basic Member
Posts:217
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31 Dec 2007 10:06 PM |
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Fred,
One toxin that you left out of your list is CO2 (Carbon Dioxide). A structure of 20,000 cubic feet (about 2,000 square feet) holds enough O2 to support one human for about 200 days. But over the course of 1 day, one human can convert enough of that Oxygen into Carbon Dioxide to raise the level of CO2 to 5,000 ppm - which is generally considered to be unhealthy. Should you have 10 people in that structure for that 1 day period, the level could rise to 50,000 ppm which is considered hazardous to animal life.
Inviting 40 of your closest friends over to watch the Superbowl could prove to be dangerous without ventilation.
Dick Mills
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KCMOKen
New Member
Posts:14
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01 Jan 2008 06:13 PM |
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LINK
This is kind of an old study, but the concepts for ventilation are still very relevant. Short answer, don't ask the person selling you an ERV or HRV if you need one. What you need is ventilation, energy recovery is often an unnecessary add-on to help accomplish this. Myself when I run the numbers, I find that an ERV or HRV rarely offers a reasonable return on investment. YMMV. |
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Fred H
New Member
Posts:4
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01 Jan 2008 10:58 PM |
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KCMOKen - Thank you for your thoughts. I find the study you mentioned interesting especially their conclusions on ERV's. In regards to ventilation needs, however, they clearly stated that they assumed it was necessary and did not study this part of the question. Fred |
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Fred H
New Member
Posts:4
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01 Jan 2008 11:07 PM |
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Mr. Mills - I would be interested to see any studies that have looked at elevated co2 problems in tight homes. At face value, I find the argument difficult to believe. Even if 10 people stayed in a home for 24 hours without opening a door or operating a spot ventilation fan, i am not sure this change in co2 level would present a danger. I would have to pull out my old physiology textbooks but I don't remember elevated co2 being a problem in the absence of an adequate O2 level. The air we breathe is only 21% O2 and our bodies don't really care what the other 79% is unless it is CO or some other gas that interferes with O2 binding to hemoglobin. Otherwise this "filler air" is just breathed in and out unchanged. I am greatly interested in any research you can refer me to. Fred |
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Dick Mills
Basic Member
Posts:217
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01 Jan 2008 11:49 PM |
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Fred,
This is what OSHA says about CO2:
Gaseous carbon dioxide is an asphyxiant. Concentrations of 10% (100,000 ppm) or more can produce unconsciousness or death. Lower concentrations may cause headache, sweating, rapid breathing, increased heartbeat, shortness of breath, dizziness, mental depression, visual disturbances or shaking. The seriousness of the latter symptoms is dependent on the concentration of carbon dioxide and the length of time the individual is exposed. The response to carbon dioxide inhalation varies greatly even in healthy normal individuals.
For workplace safety, the OSHA standard is no more than 5000 ppm for 8 hours of exposure.
http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19960605.html
Dick Mills
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KCMOKen
New Member
Posts:14
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02 Jan 2008 10:26 AM |
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I am going to have a hard time thinking you can fully control formaldehyde from entereing your construction site, it it used in far to many building materials. A couple of years back, I worked with a potential client with formaldehyde sensitivity issues, she wanted to build a new house where no formaldehyde was introduced at any point during construction. After some significant investigation on my part, I found that eliminating it was all but impossible and turned down the job as I wasn't willing to put my name on it as a guarantee that I could get it done. I talked to her a couple of months back as I was interested in her project and wondered if it ever got done, apparently no one else was comfortable with this build job either. There is a boatload of profit sitting on this table from soemone who has this sensitivity, I imagine there are others.
You are in a SIP forum, what are your SIPs skinned with (OSB?)? What are you using for floor joists, again in a SIP forum I would expect engineered lumber and not something so primitive as dimenstional lumber. And your subfloor? And your roof deck? What are you using for floor covering? In your closets, what are you using for shelf material? In your kitchen, what are you using for cabinetry and countertop? I could go on and on, but new construction materials off-gas, and you really do want that off-gassing out of your house.
With these type of questions, the first question should be where do you live? Best practices for ventilation in the north are not the same as best practices for ventilation in the hot humid south, and unfortunately no one (either the initial question or the responses) have indicated this critrical information. I used to live in Houston - hot, humid, heavily polluted, and no I wasn't desiring for a high rate of air change with that. I was a runner (before I moved there), and yet with the air quality I could hardly go 1/2 mile without stopping to catch my breath - nope I don't want to be ventilating my "clean" indoor air and exchanging it with that stuff. In regards to the ASHRAE Standard, it doesn't take this into account either.
I think with anything we do, we should look past the immediate issues and try to think about long-term issues. For your house, you can control many things that may minimize your ventilation needs. However what happens when this is no longer your house? You lose control of these things. And this is what builders (and their HVAC subcontractors) face, we don't control what happens once the house is sold, therefore we are obligated to provide adedquate ventilation (and depending on occupancy of the house and your living requirements often too much ventilation). |
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