MGO SIPs are an excellent choice for commercial projects requiring an energy efficient building envelope. MGO SIP can be installed on a steel or concrete framed structure. Panels can be taped and finished similar to drywall saving time and money. Innova Eco Building System manufactures it's patented MGO SIP panels in Miami Florida. The InnovaPanel is NOA approved for the Dade County Coastal Impact Zones of 180 mph. javascript:amaf_insertHTML('');amaf_toggleInline(5658,24560,0); javascript:amaf_insertHTML('');amaf_toggleInline(5659,24560,0);

Thanks a lot for sharing MGO SIPs Panels

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RichM

This site is contaminated with company's pushing their site, services, products. I was just posting about on my thread: http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/21/aft/84204/afv/topic/afpg/2/Default.aspx

In this case Sali I'm sure will chime in soon has never built a "Net Zero Spec" chimes in points to 'tools' on Borst site that are off topic and don't address the appraisal/lending issues with Green homes. These people look for every opportunity they can to chime into threads and point to themselves using this site as free advertising. Some make it appear by doing so they are contributors don't be fooled. Makes you wonder where they get the time to post so often if local business and they are that great. Someone should report these people to the mods and get them banned.

As far as MGO it's probably from China a well known unstable industry primarily FL based in the MGO market place trying to infiltrate the USA and abroad. They cut cost using low quality/quantity mag and fillers. In the USA Premier makes one of the most stable raw materials, a phosphate is better, and it has nothing to do with their "engineering" it takes a good chemist. Foreverboard in NY makes the best board including a tested fire rate, may be pricey. The issues are around moisture if not properly designed, and there is alot to it, it leaches a salt and corrodes fasteners that can cause health issues, major structural damage, certain paints will exasperate and some paint mfg won't warrant on mag. Especially in SIPs construction with all it's potential issues vapor drying and lack of proven tested history. Premier can offer a third party chem test report, accept nothing less. Since it's new to the USA with little history to observe, seems to me a manufacture should stand behind it offering at least a 25 year warrantee that clearly states they incure all related cost due to damage including health from a bad design if installed to their procedures, including Foreverboard, Dragonboard, whoever left that has not gone out of business, etc.

MAG Oxides and Phosphates are excellent building products here in the USA left to pros that know the industry only, not DIYs, I recommend. Not until there is more proven history like at least 25 years, or, the proper testing in several climates in the USA especially hot & humid

There is much proven history for MGO products here in the USA that go back much further than 25 years. There are currently no MGO boards manufactured here in the USA that sell board on the market. There are currently only three manufactures with any kind of USA approvals. There are literately thousands of MGO manufacturers in China with Chinese test reports that are worthless here in the USA. Dragon Board, one of the oldest has approvals for New York, Multi-Panels M-4 exterior sheathing has an ICC report and MGO Corp. has Florida Product approvals and ICC equivalent evaluation report. MGO Corp. also is in the process of providing manufacturers defect insurance which is the only company we know of currently selling board in the USA with product liability insurance. MOCA (magnesium oxide cement Association)is busy working with ASTM to create a standard for North American MGO Board products. I would not purchase board from any MGO manufacturer unless they can provide a product approval or ICC evaluation or equivalent report on the board and have a third party QC program in place for the boards. Florida is a product approval state and all products must have a third party QC approved by the state for the products to be legally used here in Florida. A good quality MGO board will have a consistent moisture content below 12%.I would not purchase boards with 18, 20 and I have even see 25% moisture content. These boards will be nothing but problems as paint and joint compound will not stick to the board when the moisture is this high. A good quality MGO board will only use glass mesh reinforcing, no cotton mesh as it will rot and the board will deteriorate over time. A good board will have a smooth consistent finish, not noticeable air bubbles or other inconsistent finish defects. There are many other manufacturers working directly with MOCA to test boards for the USA market. MGO is a superior building product that resolves many issues in the building industry such as mold, termite infestation and fire. If you choose to use MGO on your next project,purchase your board from a reputable company (MOCA Member Company)and I'm sure you will not be disappointed. Proper MGO board will give you a class A finish, far superior to drywall or cement fiber boards, both of which has a paper face.

"There is much proven history for MGO products here in the USA that go back much further than 25 years."

Please post it?

"There are currently no MGO boards manufactured here in the USA that sell board on the market."

Meet Ron from Foreverboard been at it over 10 years in NY opening plants across the US in collaboration with top "chemist" at Premier producing it for over 50 years here in the US: http://www.foreverboard.net/ http://www.premiermagnesia.com/

Jerry Rageman is the chemist can tell you all about Chinese boards and how ICC and other ASTM, lab testing standards are misleading and there are well known salt leaching and corrosion issues that need to be resolved they have a patent on. America needs to support them and the jobs they produce. In many locations they are competitive with drywall. They use a better light burnt MAG China does not making their panels light weight. MM is another US miner:

http://magnesiaspecialties.com/products/#

I'd keep it out of moist bathrooms, etc, for now, and would not go with SIP. Use an inert high perm core like mineral wool.

If you're going to sell MGO I suggest you learn about the other many benes you failed to mention and get your facts straight. 12% MC in a SIPS panel will not cut it in high humidity, 40% like clay/lime binders/aggregates plaster options are better. Besides, it's just not MC(max moisture content) that matters it's sorption(intake/exhaust speeds) capillary rates and whether the skins can keep moisture from getting to the SIPs organic glue and/or foam and dry within 24-48 hrs that are not inert or chemically stable and mold growth. That depends on the knowledge of the designer and the surface environment/boundary conditions they put it in, assume the worse here unless a WUFI model was ran by an experienced engineer. IF the panel gets saturated from low MC(eg:12) it will grow mold and rot, leach, corrode.

Another option DenseArmor is gypsum drywall with a long field vs laboratory history on steroids, it also has a breathable fiberglass scrim cloth surface too vs junk paper. From what I can tell although there is no way to monitor these mfgs full time is the quality of gypsum is high, that's important for pros to verify it and other composition or junk fillers

For a latent heat bene check out PCM drywall a fast growing industry.

MGO products were manufactured in the USA in the 1930's by a Company named THERMAX. They manufactured MGO products from their plant in Chewelah Washington in conjunction with Northwest Magnesite Co. Products manufactured included MGO insulation products, structural Thermax sheathing, Fireproof partition board, Thermax plank flooring and many other products. Quote from 1936 Thermax Brochure, "LOW COST HOUSING CONSTRUCTION—The Thermax Division, Northwest Magnesite Co. has developed fire-safe, insulated and vermin-proof practical assembly designs to conform with various building requirements in the low cost housing field.

Not sure what the purpose of the remainder of your post is as we are the most experienced MGO SIP manufacturer in the USA. We know Premier Magnesia, LLC, they are a member of MOCA, "Magnesium Oxide Concrete Association", the vary organization that I advised in my post that is working to create a new North American ASTM acceptance standard for MGO Board. I do not know Ron Ragman, but please post contact information for any of the MGO Board manufacturing plants that he has been opening in the USA for the past 10 years as we know of no such plants selling approved MGO boards manufactured here in the USA? I'm sure your friend at Premier can verify this for you, however they are working with a group in BC, so hopefully there will be a North American plant soon? As far as your comments on moisture content of a MGO board, I think you misunderstood? No Board product is acceptable with moisture contents of 18 and 20%. Paint, stucco and other products will not adhere to boards with these types of moisture issues. It is like trying to lay wet block, no bond as the bonding is dependent on low moisture. You may be a chemist, but building scientist your not. We are one of the largest importers of MGO board here in the USA and we manufacture SIP panels in Florida and use a MGO board with a stable 12% moisture content. I do believe that we have our facts correct, do you? We have manufactured over 500 MGO structures the past six years, almost all of which have been installed in hot humid conditions of Florida, Caribbean Islands and South America. We have tested our MGO SIP panels at wind speeds over 235 MPH without failure. We are the only MGO SIP manufacturer that has tested and obtained product approvals to these levels. The MGO Board that we use is product approved and 3rd party tested by Intertek and QC by NAMI under the Florida Product Approval Program. The board also has Codemark and other approvals required by European Countries. There are several very good MGO Board manufacturers that are producing quality boards in China and selling them here in the USA. You do not find these manufacturers on Alibaba selling the cheapest boards on the market. The board we use, cost almost 50% more than the cheapest boards on the market. A good quality 12mm MGO board will cost around $30 a board with shipping cost to the USA. Checkout MOCA, it is a good industry organization and many of the concerns with MGO board will be resolved with the acceptance of the standards they are creating. MGO Board is a superior building product with many benefits over traditional board products. For a list of benefits of MGO board please refer to the following link: http://innovaecobuildingsystem.com/experience-the-difference/

I just called MOCA everything I described above is accurate sounds like there is the same ongoing quality issues and current effort with China to resolve with the standard, etc.....I hope it all works out, I'll only buy from US mined and manufactured right now that is Foreverboard and it is approved by chemist teams very qualified at Premier. I'll take that over developing test with China any day of the week. As I said, forget all the sales hype if your that confident about your product put a good warranty behind it like 5-25 years from the manufacture that is easy to make claims on. State in it all related cost from efflorescence, corrosion, health, will be covered along with all punitive damages. I'm not a chemist and I'm not friends with any in the MAG business. BTW, I was asking for tested homes with links to third party test results, not lab or word of mouth. I was going to develop some MAG plasters and concrete but the moisture issues are not resolved. Last I talked to Jerry about six months ago they were working on a gunnite mix I'd really like to get. Fasteners remain an issues, galvinized steel won't work nor will bare, questionable if stainless will depends on grade they are not inert corrosion free nor is plastic. So, as I said lots of testing need over 30+ yrs including field in all US climate zones. If you want to buy and work it out overseas sell there, don't mislead the US as if it is proven and tested in all it's climate zones. Point to history won't work since there are 1000s of variations of MAG, lots of trials and tribulations, not all success stories, common, really? You being the "building scientist" you claim to be should know that much lol! ;) BTW: I was referring to the hygroscopic properties(eg: MC, sorption, capillary actions) apparently went over your head, of MGO not painting application on wet boards, paint is also an issue most companies won't warrantee MGO due to all the issues from China....all common USA paints need to be tested by third party and results made public in lieu of a history like gypsum drywall has.

The effort has been going on for some time, glad to hear your up to speed now with the history of MGO in N America and the efforts taking place to create a standard for all MGO sold in the USA regardless of where it is manufactured. I'm still waiting on the contact info for all of these USA board manufacruring plants that you claim to have have knowledge of? I think you need to read our post more careful as you seem to miss the most important information. We warranty our MGO SIP panels for 20 years. We carry international product liability insurance for any product defects during the warranty period. The supplier we purchase board from also carries international product liability insurance to cover any possible manufacturing defect. I know of no other MGO manufacture that offers any such product insurance to protect the buyer. As it is clear that your also not a builder, please understand that a chemist approval of a board is WORTHLESS when trying to obtain a building permit.

Yes, I know, I tried to get alternative materials adopted here an ICC letter helps. I can also do that with the test report Premier gave me of forever board. Depends, as you should know as national "builder", building scientist, IRC has several "alternate material" code compliance paths the AHJ determines for fire burn rates, structural rating for braced walls, etc, too to obtain building permits. If you stand behind your product in FL and it works for who you there who can argue with that. Ron @ foreverboard has a plant in NY I gave a link to, last I talked to him early last year he was about ready to open mfg plants in Chicago, CA too, and just surpassed by far fire testing that can be used also to get a permit. If your that interested call him already.

Good luck!....I'm looking forward to it all working out. MAG has proven potential if done right dating back to the Romans. I'll stay tuned, needed the update. I design-build high performance homes hard to keep up with it all. I'd love to put some mag board up, Ron's price can't compete with my $.15 SF drywall here, more like .40 shipped and I'm already having issues w/appraisers, no comps, lack of understood value, maintenance, etc...MGO fails Builders loose reputation $$$ obtaining a building permit won't solve. I hope those and client losses are all well worded in your warantee.

I believe our new president Donald Trump is going to shut down most if not all import manufacturing from China, or make very difficult to profit here thank goodness! I think these foreign manufactures know that and are making a last ditch effort to get unfounded sales. We need to take back american jobs. I'd suggest buy from Premier or Ron @ Foreverboard. Trust that I get no kickbacks on sales ask him I'm in the central plains. I support USA American made and manufactured!!!! I just got a sales call from MOCA, I told the Chinese sounding woman to stop calling me I know what is going on too well. Not interested in some standard not enforceable or qualified by the USA to improve China board when Premier and Foreverboard already has that done and can work with your local AHJ to get the docs you need for permits or code comply, they will support local job creation, and if there are issues you know they have domestic mining and manufacturing reputations to uphold, not found over in China. Also, the light burnt mag they produce has a much higher strength-to-weight ratio not mentioned by the sales hype above that puts less static/dynamic load on the foundation requiring higher amounts of costly concrete to react. Do a full cost analysis by a local qualified engineer, "local building scientist" this sales "building scientist" person has no clue about before deciding and think about future generations to come. We have domestic SIPs manufactures if your into that need do not take any risk with anyone that does business with China. Today, I got word by someone from MOCA just got back from China. They fly over there, hoping to push that cost to America.

I will contact Forever Board, it sounds interesting and I'm not familiar with their products. I have looked at their website and it is good that someone is making some MGO products here in the USA. The information on their website seems to be for use as a drywall replacement? I do not see any information about uses as an exterior structural sheathing? I will inquire if their boards are rated for exterior uses? The boards we require needs to be good quality structural MGO boards that are rated for exterior use as a load bearing wall. In Florida, it is common to just paint the exterior MGO Board for a smooth stucco look finish. We generally use a breathable elastomeric paint over a primer coat, the Sherwin Williams system is most common. The board will need to have a low moisture content for paint to adhere without issue.

I don't think Ron is after the siding market yet, last we talked, I don't know, but as you stated you can code comply with a structural stucco per the braced wall method in IRC/IBC, not sure about FL local codes. Ron has a pellet EPS core I don;t care for ruining his perm rating he did not know of or tested, he got rid of I think in his fire/smoke board. You may want to check perm rating of "elastomer" paints that usually means toxic asphalt or petro based, and if they are inert, chemically stable in various climate zones over long life cycles with MGO my guess is it is low perm and they are not very "breathable" or stable. You put a vapor barrier of any sort on MGO(surface/core) you just ruined it's hygroscopic mass one of it's best properties. So we have the paint/fastener chem stability of MGO that has to be the same or better than gypsum/OSB/wood glued siding which the raw matl is by far, and we have the need to vapor manage based on it's max moisture content & sorption rates which are excellent, much better than portland/gypsum cements that cost less but you need about 1/3 less MGO binder than OPC so the cost should equal out depending on grades. MGO absorbs C02/vapor like lime it tries to convert back to a rock getting stronger and stronger and it cures again and again. You need an inert natural paint like a natural mineral or silica(sand) which HEIM or ROMA has that keeps these unique properties intact allowing it to hold up to 30-35% it's volume or weight in vapor or liquid water and not loosen it's paint binder(s) as it cycles vapor or MGO compatible highly breathable paint binders are best, and not corrode fasteners Jerry at Premier can help with. A latex would ruin MGO, and it has to be dummy proof for that. Last I talked to them they will not warrantee MGO since China is all over the chemical issues map they can not control. George Swanson in another MGO "advisor" and co-author of a great book "breathable walls" not that I trust all his hyped up knowledge nor does Jerry and Claudio is the other chemist at Premier I forgot about he has moved on. I went and seen some homes George said he did in Austin using Dragonboard I think it was, drywall and floor looked decent, siding some signs of efflorescence in that nasty hot humid climate after two years, no paint on anything yet. Glad to hear you are willing to see things the American way right, wrong, or indifferent. Give the new Chemist Jerry at Premier a call seems like an all around honest straight shooter to me anyway. Good luck, I want you all to succeed MAG done right is great don't get me wrong.

Hygroscopic mass is one of MGO's worst attributes in humid climates
Most often the boards are produced by using Sorel cement (Magensiumoxychloride).
Resulting in a very hygroscopic product that can produce a problem named "crying boards" when applied in too humid climate.
The chloride also produce a highly corrosive environment for fasteners and steel studs.

Here they all have their pros and cons, cost is not mentioned here and there are no general rules a good chemist can make any properites they want. Agree, I'm not sold in hot/humid yet other than a phospate which is expensive, then again Jerry would not let me see his patent pending lab reports, teaser :). Shand is the MAN in the know!!!

http://www.premiermagnesia.com/magnesium-cements-news

Check out the compression and flex strengths awesome! We as an industry want this to work, it exceeds by far most matls, hygro definitely included once the efflorescence and fastener corrosion's issues are resolved. Prelim lab reports I seen from Premier that is a done deal.

Posted By cmkavala on 25 Nov 2016 06:15 PM
Hygroscopic mass is one of MGO's worst attributes in humid climates
Most often the boards are produced by using Sorel cement (Magensiumoxychloride).
Resulting in a very hygroscopic product that can produce a problem named "crying boards" when applied in too humid climate.
The chloride also produce a highly corrosive environment for fasteners and steel studs.

Don't be shy write more if you know what you are talking about ;) I can get at least that much from a short goggle search. hahahha!

anyway, Innova give Jerry a call first before Ron, I lost his # have it somewhere. When I was in PA last year not far from his corporate office Premier was moving to Atlanta I think it was or that is where Jerry lives, and he flys all over the USA working with mfgs, I barely caught him between flights. He offered to fly to me to work out a plaster and cement, nice guy willing to help. He was working on a shotcrete for civil last we talked.

Wait here is Jerry's contact info I found in my email history,

Jerry E. Rademan
Business and Technology Development
Premier Magnesia, LLC
200 River Vista Drive, Unit 421
Atlanta, GA 30339
Cell Phone #: (904) 860-9059
E-Mail Address: [email protected]
Website: www.premiermagnesia.com

Good luck to you all make it happen!

Innova, hats off and kudos for making or trying to make an awesome matl like MAG work as manufactured in the USA. If you go local raw matls and mfg you will be the USA superior SIPs mfg/producer. MAG properties potentially surpass by far any SIP skins, or stand alone products despite it's issues that are/can be worked out proven by history dating back to the Romans..