What is everyone's experience with form compression after filling with concrete, such as: What brand compress the most? How do you limit compression? Can you predict compression amount?

To start, have you done a search on this site for the subject? I see 4 pages of form settling, compression etc. threads already available.

Short answer, yes I believe all eps ICF's compress a certain amount. Worst/best forms, couldn't say. Your success in truly flat walls with a level top plate will be dictated by your methodologies.

For instance, although Nudura (an excellent form) has full height ties which inhibit compression, the top plate of the pour will mirror any footing or slab inconsistencies, and must be dealt with. No big deal or reason not to use it, just know the form you are using.
Whereas some EPS forms without full height ties will actually compensate for imperfect footings and slabs and have a flatter top plate; Except where windows and door openings are, the top plate may be a little humped, unless one leaves a small gap above the window/door buck and allows the eps to slide down during the initial few pour lift on a wall. For example, a v-buck or stala type buck with exterior flanges will let the forms settle and maintain a flat top plate, whereas a wood buck may not allow the lintel eps to drop when the wall compresses, and therefor the top plate may be humped if not screeded properly...

We have found high slump concrete causes walls to compress much more.

We have found gluing horizontal seams causes walls to compress much more.

If you screw your strongbacks tight to the ties, the outside eps will compress even though the inside EPS doesn't. We have picture documentation, after 36 ft. of pouring 4 inch walls with 9 inch slump, the exterior eps was over and inch lower than the interior eps, because the contractor made bracing with holes instead of slots. I was remediating their project, told them to fix it. They didnt' and the 4 inch forms blew out on the next (4th floor) right over a construction elevator....And these were fixed forms arguably the strongest on the market.
Get someone to but a sack of sacrete on your shoulders, your knees bend a little and you hold the weight. Keep your knees fixed, you want to fall over, this is why full height ties don't get as straight a wall; the wall torques.
Or keep one leg in the air, try the bag of concrete. Youll fall over. This is what happens when screws are too tight in the strongbacks.

Compression isn't scary, just must be managed.

Kevin
www.icfinstall.com

This is one of the benefits of the TF "Vertical" ICF system, no compression and no floating. The ties which are called "studs" in this system, are continuous from top to bottom, and are not permanently attached to to the foam forms. You can see the details on the TF website. There are also some excellent videos, that depict the TF installation process, on You Tube.

bkvanbek,
If Compression is such a concern for yourself then go w/ a form that has a floating web.
This will eliminate much of the compression issues and as irnivek mentioned, It is very important
to slot the holes for scaffolding screws. This will allow both sides of the wall to act as one and compress the same. When pour occurs I never go without laser leveling the top so that no shiming is required and simply bolting down the top plate is left before roof truss. Laser leveling takes care of much problems that might happen as mentioned , over windows and so on , so forth. I know the equipment is a bit costly but much appreciated.

irnivek, I just re-read your last post re ".....this is why full height ties don't get as straight a wall; the wall torques"

Are you aware of specific incidents where this has happened with the TF "Vertical" ICF system? It does utilize a full height tie, as I mentioned in a recent post on this thread, but I've not heard of any "torqued" walls on any TF projects.

Maybe tdbuilder will chime in here as he is one of the more active GBT participants who installs TF on a regular basis.

The problem with form compression is the finished wall height. We just had a builder that shimmed his plate, so we had to put non-shrink grout under it.

As long as we use the correct screw and put the screw loosely in the near the top of the slot in the strong-back, we do not have a bowing problem. Is that what you guys mean by "torqued walls"?

These shameless self promoters who claim "no compression, no floating" should at least include a disclaimer, "under perfect slab/footing conditions" to encourage clients to pay special attention to whats below.
The studies to show this have been completed and proven in written detail and drawings, I think back in the ICF MONITOR days. When the footing/slab is out of plane, the wall will mirror the discrepancies upon concrete placement.

When I speak of a wall torquing, I am refering to the fact that although the top and bottom of the walls may be straight, doesn't mean the wall itself has a "true" flat plane. I've assisted some homeowners pouring their jobs where the customer is giving themselves high fives at how great everything is because "no blowouts" and the string line at the top is straight. Meanwhile diagonal strings from upper left corner to lower right corner and vice versa would show vivid discrepancies-even while reading plumb, square, and straight.

This is why the eye is a carpenters biggest asset.

Again, not a big deal, these torqued walls would still surpass most wood frame walls.

We are just stubbornly pursing perfection in an imperfect world.

Kevin
www.icfinstall.com

Kevin. I was a tad unsuccessful at getting this information on another thread, so I am glad it is coming out.

I am particularly interested in vertical ICF technical traits. Would you suggest a top to bottom, corner to corner string line (or vertical laser level) to measure and then brace appropriately the "torqued" areas? .. or might you have some other suggestions?

It's too bad that this thread had to go negative with a personal attack. And, I consider being called a "shameless self promoter" to be just that. It's a particularly interesting comment, coming from someone who includes his website address on every post. I've never done that but my firm's contact information can easily be found in our listing in the GBT directory which, by the way, we pay for. (as do many other of the GBT regular participants)

However, I have referred interested parties directly to the TF website for more detailed information in connection with their products, I hope that's not to be considered to be "shameless self promoting".

Now, to the point, it was irnivek who made the statement regarding "full height ties and torquing" I merely asked him if he could document any specific incidents of this actually occurring. However, rather than backing up his claim he responds, not only with a direct insult but goes off topic with comments about "under perfect slab/footing conditions" etc etc which I would assume that every concrete pro is aware of, and further more would have nothing to do with "compression". If dealing with a DIY'er, then obviously, I'm going to point out the importance of level, square, plumb, slabs/footings, etc. These rules apply to all ICF's, blocks and vertical, and are spelled out in
every manufacturer's installation manual (I assume that to be the case because I haven't really read them all)

I do want to apologize to the folks who are reading these threads with the objective of learning something, whether they're planning to build something, or have other motivations. I'm aware that "arguments" such as this, among the regular participants on these forums, can sometimes seem to be counter- productive to the intent of GBT. However, when negative comments are made about a specific system, or a component of that system (eg "full height ties") then someone is usually going to ask the author of that comment to back it up with specifics. As far as the personal insults go, that really doesn't seem to happen that much anymore, but when they do, they're not likely to go unanswered, particularly when they're out of line.

Maybe we can move along on the topic of this thread "compression with ICFs" I'm sure that there are more experiences and opinions out there. (I'm even open to constructive comments, or criticism, if that be the case, to my reaction to the subject "insults and negative comments")

Full height ties do not compress as much as ones that have a space between them at the horizontal seam and the tighter you get them together the better. Winter is tougher than summer.

Any tricks to get the interlocks tighter?

There are ICF systems that won't compress. They aren't made from polystyrene. All systems will have their pros and cons and I won't go into more detail in order to avoid being bashed.

The one practice we found to thighten up the interlocks was to lay a 4 foot 2x on the top of the block, one side at a time, and pound w/hammer. Simple but eliminates pretty much every gap in between the forms, this is after big irregularities, when present, in the footers have been shimmed.
This usually does it for us!
Cheers!

James , Don't be too sensitive, posters "bash" more so than they would in normal conversation (I hope), it goes with all the strong opinions. So please give your experiences and name names.

Everyone, what brand compress the most? How do you limit compression? Can you predict compression amount?

  

Kevin
look no website.

And I apologize for being a smart aleck.  I will try to change.

So, Irnivek, just to recap, and briefly respond to your most recent post that was addressed to me personally, and then I think that we should be done with this little "thread hijacking"

1. If your comment re: "shameless self promoting" wasn't aimed at me, who did you have in mind?
Nobody else included the phrase "no compression, no floating" in their posts.

2. I could care less about your "credit card numbers changing, and how that affected your listing
in the GBT "Professionals Directory" There are many valuable contributors to these forums who
don't participate in that program, I may not be in there forever. However, it's only $ 20 per
month per product listing, and only takes about 5 minutes to sign up.

3. I'm sorry that I made your little smiley face frown with my comments about "referring interested
parties to TF for more info" but I'll probably continue to do that whenever I see fit.

4. Your obsession with the issue of "Inconsistencies in the footer/slab...." borders on hysteria. Also,
your continued negative comments are way out of line. eg: "......The TF manual is HORRIBLY
BAD POLICY" and "You're being MISSLEADING by.........." These are pretty strong accusations to
be throwing around, particularly in a public forum, especially when you can't back them up.
These types of comments are counter productive to a civilized discussion, and certainly indicate
a like of sincerity in regard to any attempt to offer an apology.

Now, Irnivek, if you really want to know how TF addresses your primary concern (we all know what that is by now.)

Go BACK to the TF website, click on the "Technical Library" tab. Then click on either of the "document" links under the heading "Standard TF System Specifications in CSI Format". This will
take you to a document titled "Insulated Concrete Forming" Then scroll down to Part 3 titled
"Execution" then to 3.02 "Preparation" then note item B which reads as follows.....................

"Footings shall be uniformly smooth and flat on the top to ensure that the galvanized C-Channel lies flat"

(Now one might assume that that also means "level". There are many more details in this document regarding proper execution, preparation, etc, relating to all phases of the ICF installation/concrete pouring/ finishing process.)

I hope that does it on these issues for now, how about we get back on topic (sorry folks, but what would you do in a situation such as this?)

I think you meant "I couldn't care less" to say "I could care less" would literally mean you could care a little to a lot or anywhere in-between.

Back on subject; what brand compress the most? How do you limit compression? Can you predict compression amount?

So now, after all this jazz, the consumer gets to clearly see that full height tie systems can only negate the "problems" with compression in non full height tie systems under perfect conditiions-a perfect slab/footing or perfectly modified hat channels.

I hope that trying to hijack customers from those using slow, compressing, lifting horizontal block thingies is done more responsibly and truthfully in the future.

Sipper don't be so sensitive. I never originally mentioned TF, you just went and threw yourself under a bus. Read around, all the full height tie systems I see make sugarcoated claims to snare the inexperienced consumer to make the sale. And it's done on the back of those -paraphrase- "bad bad frustrating horizontal blocks thingies" Maybe the technical library comes with the block delivery. Maybe manufacturers should have disclaimers like the pharmaceuticals on TV. LOL

I am not paranoid, ICF is a tiny part of my life. I would like to see ICF develop quickly; quicker than other construction technologies have; Spend some time on the Fastfoot website, they have some nice case studies. In ICF, when you spend time on the details, perfection becomes attainable.
Way too many manufacturers and distributors focus on the initial sale instead of the repeat sale. Repeat sales are accomplished when jobs are done in a quality manner. Like the framer not being pissed that the top plate is not consistent.

On a positive note, reportedly TF has among the best service and nicest helpful people in the industry. And they will do a good job for you, just now you know a couple of the "quirks"

Brad, sorry if you feel you aren't getting your answers;
How do you limit compression? answered by many
Why do you want to know the most compressing brand anyways? I don't think it should be answered....
Can you predict compression amount? Yes, with solidly set blocks and well molded forms, 3/8 in a 12 ft. pour.

Kevin -can I use my name without an advertisement in this forum??

Why not mention brands? Amount of compression by brand would be good to know, then we could predict it and all do better.

Keep in mind, the ICF manufacturers (most of them) sub contract out the molding process. Depending on the molder and quality of forms (notice I didn't say block?) also manufacturer of the original foam mold, also age of the mold, compression and "fit" can be affected, thereby changing some aspects of compression. So its not always just a blatant brand issue, that's all.


Kevin

Thanks, Brad, you're 100% correct regarding my use of the ".............care less" phrase.

irnivek, here we go again: (in reference to your first post this morning)

I've only been talking about the TF "full height tie" which is NOT SECURED TO THE FOAM FORM.
That is one of the primary reasons that you will not experience compression or floating with this this system. However, again, I don't see how a faulty footer affects "compression", as you imply.

Obviously a faulty footer/slab will cause other problems if not addressed early on.

Again, another serious allegation aimed at someone who is being "irresponsible and untruthful" in their efforts to provide information, and answer questions, about their product? Who are you referring to?

Sensitive? Not me, I'm just inclined to challenge "irresponsible and untrue" comments when they're aimed in my direction. Then there are just plain dumb comments like "you just went and threw yourself under the bus" ??????

Also, who are you accusing of ".......making sugar coated claims to SNARE inexperienced consumers to make a sale" ?

Next, you sure take up a lot of space for someone for whom ICFS are a TINY part of your life.
And, who are the manufacturers and distributors who don't care about the repeat sale? This is the kind of information that would be helpful, if you can substantiate these allegations. You talk like you're the only one out there who is quality oriented. However, I think that everyone would agree with you that "the framer" should start off with a "consistent" top plate." (there's a unique concept!)

Now, obviously, you got to me with your positive comments about the folks at TF, I have to agree 100%, and I know that they're working on the two "quirks" that you referred to.

By the way, in regard to the question of "compression" so far as I know it's "0" with TF, but I've only personally witnessed 3 pours so maybe someone out there has a different story.

Next?