I am an ICF distributor in Ohio, and I have a customer asking me for something I have never dealt with.  He wants a house that will last a very long time (understandably) which is why he is going ICF. 

His problem is the floor connection systems available.  He wants to do a 10" basement, 6" first and second floor.  The first floor will just set on the 4" ledge, but he does not like the idea of ICFVL's or ICF Connect for the second floor, even though I have tried to show him all of the data I can. 

He tossed around the idea of Insuldeck, but wants real hardwood floors nailed solid.  He also doesn't like the idea of walking on the hard concrete floors.

My questions are:

Is top bearing trusses sitting on a brick ledge a good option?

Is it a good idea to embed wood or steel floor joists into the wall?

What are more options that I can give to him?

Thank you.

How long is "a very long time", exactly?

I guess he didn't state an exact year, but i would guess he meant longer than his lifetime.  (He is in his 40's).

Not trying to be difficult, but I've seen places built in 1900 that lasted 90 years (without ICF). Just about any quality build is gonna outlast him. And I speak as someone who is about the same age. :-)

He's really going to like anything you do with ICF and worrying about the floor joist ties sorta borders on the very compulsive, doesn't it?

Compulsive or not, he is the customer and the customer is always right.

You can do all that he wants and give him some real solid wood floors glued down to that Insuldeck slab. That's sorta what he is asking for, isn't it? Seems like with the Insuldeck on the first and second floors, you could come down to 8" or better on the ICF walls. It would still be a bunker.

You could also just do ICF up through to the ceiling of the first floor if he would consider that You could have Insuldeck as the first floor which would bring your walls down to even 6". Then, you set the second floor wood joists on top normally without needing the horizontally embedded ties. Sort of ....a hybrid. :-)

always right yet misguided.

Posted By dwangle on 13 Jan 2011 02:47 PM
My questions are:

Is top bearing trusses sitting on a brick ledge a good option?

Is it a good idea to embed wood or steel floor joists into the wall?

What are more options that I can give to him?

Hello Dwangle,  I do like the idea of Insul-deck under the boards but here are a couple of other ideas to consider.

Using a brickledge may force you to brace to the outside or it will at least complicate things a bit.  Since you have an 10" to 6" transition, I wouldn't bother with the brickledge from basement to 1st floor.    If you want more bearing use a 10" taper top form.  You might need to cut your bottom course to make the taper-top terminate at the proper floor height.  If you like a block that doesn't have a taper-top form then you can make it on site.

You can make wood or steel embed pockets to bear wood or steel joists on the wall easily enough.  I think another active thread is addressing this now.  I think  your building will very very strong if you used the standard old 12" j-bolt technique.   If you want it really strong (don't cantilevel the j-bolts).  Cut out a large hole (6" inches or 8" round so that the concrete will flow all around your j-bolt.  Of course you will need to put each j-bolt on a piece of plywood to attach to the wall.  You can put these in every 2 or 3 feet to attach your ledger board(s).  I say board(s) because some builders like a double ledger board for more bearing.

You might also try anchor tunnels (which accomplish the same thing as the j-bolts).  I believe they are about $5 or $6 a piece.  Regards.  

If you go with embedded J bolts, you will more than likely need them much closer than every 2 to 3 feet unless the floor joist spans are very short and/or the J bolts are very large (>3/4" diameter).  More typical spacing of J bolts to hold a ledger board would be single  5/8" J bolts every 16" or double 5/8" J bolts every 24".  The HUD PRESCRIPTIVE METHOD FOR INSULATING CONCRETE FORMS IN RESIDENTIAL CONSTRUCTION Second Edition provides floor ledger bolt sizing and spacing tables.  See excerpt from table below.

Another option is ICF Connect joist connectors for the second floor.

Edit:  I missed the statement that he didn't want ICF Connect.




This link shows an example of a floor ledger mounted to staggered anchor bolts using anchor tunnels.

http://www.logixicf.com/media/cad/5...2d9584.pdf

Hey dwangle,

I would think a top bearing trusses sitting on an inverted would work pretty easily, though like TexasICF said you would need to brace from the outside. Also, keep in mind that if you do go with an inverted brickledge it would then create a crown molding senario as the brickledge would come in at close to 45 degrees. While a bit more difficult I would have to think it would be more cost effective than insuldeck. That said, if he want to pay for the insuldeck (which would require osb on the concrete before installing the wood floors), that would certainly work.

As discussed above. Space your j bolts as required by code. Next attach your ledger board to the wall blocks with 3" screws into the block webs. Install the j bolts in the ledger board with double nuts to hold in position as the concrete is poured. Pour the concrete in walls, allow to cure, install floor joists using standard joist hangers attached to ledger. No need to make it more complicated than it has to be. We typically use one 5/8" j bolt in every other bay (about 16" on center). These (and the 3" screws) will allow a joist span of up to 16', which is max I normally use in residential construction.

wes,

Where do you place your bracing? Inside or outside? If inside, how do you get around that pre-placed ledger board? Also, I assume you cut out a large piece of foam where the anchor bolts are located to allow the concrete to flow up to the back of the ledger board. What about movement or settling of the foam during the pour? Do you have to come back and shim or trim the ledger board after the wall is cured?

Going the pre-installed ledger route is not a bad idea but has it's drawbacks as you noted above.
Putting on the leger before the pour will require vertical support( ex. 2x4 ).
By doing so you will have created a level surface for brace attachement, however brace lenght and floor
height might leave you with enough space to attach the brace directly to the form.
By doing so you'll have more settlement on the outside than the inside. Not a 2'' difference, but will be accordingly noticable with respects to height of wall.
Personnaly, I'd rather embbed the bolts and the attach ledger after the pour is done. Since as mentioned above, the settlement issue, bracing, etc.
Good luck with mr. customer. Hope ,for your sake, this does'nt announce the rest of the build process!

arkie6,  You are correct.  I should have said doubles for 3 feet.  That said it is a bit like killing a mosquito with a grenade.  Not unlike extra j-bolts on the top plate since a tornado will break a wood roof into pieces long before a single j-bolt fails.   Code is code but sometimes it's painful because 8x-9x stronger should be enough but 12x or whatever is typical required.   This reminds me of a time or two when the alternate ICF had twice the steel of the baseline CMU.

thagreen,
I agree with you - for a number of reasons I prefer to attach the ledger after the pour is done.   However, I'm curious about something you said.  

"By doing so you'll have more settlement on the outside than the inside. Not a 2'' difference, but will be accordingly noticable with respects to height of wall."

I've poured a lot of ICF but have not observed this before.  Are you talking about compression of the block?  

 

To answer some of the questions about my last post.
I brace to the inside. Typically, I make a 5-6" diameter hole for each j bolt.
Vertical supports for the ledger are not necessary. The 3" screws hold the ledger securely without additional support.
I use wooden bracing, so I make the verticals whatever length I need them to be. Short enough to allow for any settling that might occur.

Compression and settling? Please elaborate. Thanks.

TexasICF,
The settlement issue I was reffering to, was when the ledger before pour route is in effect.
Once the ledger installed, you'll have to support it to keep the specified height. By doing so you'll have to screw the supports to the wall down to footers(inside). On the outside wall there is no support so, compression will be some what greater.
I should have specified that this settlement issue will occur more with independent, knock down blocks. My apologies for this lack of information on my part.
PS: -27 celcius this morning, liking my icf home more and more.

I don't like using a brick-lor the floor joists, but it is easy enough. The attached photo we had a brick-ledge to the outside too, so bracing was a pain.

Here is the bolt we use .. Not difficult to place.
There is a tendency to use proprietary hangers within the industry, and that is good...but we like the flexibility this allows us 

 
 
 

Eric,
How do you install them?
Also, no problems with them sagging in the foam when weight is applied? It seems that they could rotate downward, with only about 1/3 of their length imbedded in the concrete.