SIPs on a budget
Last Post 03 Aug 2015 08:42 PM by cmkavala. 39 Replies.
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kitedUser is Offline
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27 May 2015 05:10 PM
I'm interested in having a SIPs home built. The chief design factor is to make it as affordable as possible yet be energy efficient. My first idea is a rectangle with a single slope shed roof. I was looking to have two floors, with the second floor being somewhat open to the floor beneath. I'm placing first floor walls so as to be structural and minimize spans. The big question is what are the options on supporting floor and roof joists? I'm interested in the right balance of cost and air-tightness. Should I continue structural walls all the way to the ceiling? Yes, I know, architect and structural engineer path, but I'm just trying to get a good enough idea of feasibility and layout before I commit.
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27 May 2015 05:39 PM
Where do you plan to build with which type of SIP? Metal skin or OSB with EPS or polyurethane?
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27 May 2015 05:55 PM
Looking at Poly if the cost isn't prohibitive over EPS. Metal sounds like a huge thermal bridging problem. I hadn't even given it much of a day in court yet.

IA, WI or MA are possible locations. It's all largely academic at this point, but if I need plan 1-3 years down the road, I can.

I've seen it pretty much done, but with huge cost in support framing.

http://zacharyengineering.com/index.php/site/projects_detail/1700-sq-ft.-custom-residence-in-martis-camp-with-s.i.p.s

These folks seem to do it, but they aren't offering me any clues:

http://www.sakhouse.com/

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27 May 2015 07:53 PM
Posted By kited on 27 May 2015 05:55 PM
Looking at Poly if the cost isn't prohibitive over EPS. Metal sounds like a huge thermal bridging problem. I hadn't even given it much of a day in court yet.

IA, WI or MA are possible locations. It's all largely academic at this point, but if I need plan 1-3 years down the road, I can.

I've seen it pretty much done, but with huge cost in support framing.

http://zacharyengineering.com/index.php/site/projects_detail/1700-sq-ft.-custom-residence-in-martis-camp-with-s.i.p.s

These folks seem to do it, but they aren't offering me any clues:

http://www.sakhouse.com/




it is possible to eliminate the thermal bridging with metal and is predominately used in commercial cold storage
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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27 May 2015 07:55 PM
Metal skin or OSB with EPS or polyurethane?


Oh, you asked metal skin. Does that improve your structural support of the SIP itself? Would that minimize extra framing requirements for floors and roof commensurate with increased cost? Wouldn't metal skin be a hotter climate technique, in order to reflect instead of absorb sum?
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27 May 2015 08:12 PM
metal skinned SIPs have been used in Alaska and Canada for commercial and residential use.
thermal cuts and breaks can be utilized to prevent thermal bridging in northern states, but not needed in hotter climates because of smaller temperature differences
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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28 May 2015 07:51 AM
Posted By kited on 27 May 2015 07:55 PM
Metal skin or OSB with EPS or polyurethane?


Oh, you asked metal skin. Does that improve your structural support of the SIP itself? Would that minimize extra framing requirements for floors and roof commensurate with increased cost? Wouldn't metal skin be a hotter climate technique, in order to reflect instead of absorb sum?

the osb sip panels for the most part don't need extra framing, for example I'm spaning 16' roof panels no additional supports, walls 24'

you need to call a few manufactures to get more info with your design in mind or a sketch you can send them, I think you may be over thinking it.

figure ball park the panels are $4 sq'
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28 May 2015 12:13 PM
Some OSB SIPs can contain dimensional lumber to increase their span. Some metal skin SIPs can contain metal stiffeners to do likewise. Various factors such as loads, slopes, etc. help to determine span. I have seen more than one OSB SIP home with beams every 8' under the roof. This should be more energy efficient than inserting dimensional lumber (splines) within the SIP that replaces foam.
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28 May 2015 01:35 PM
Posted By kited on 27 May 2015 05:10 PM
I'm interested in having a SIPs home built. The chief design factor is to make it as affordable as possible yet be energy efficient. My first idea is a rectangle with a single slope shed roof. I was looking to have two floors, with the second floor being somewhat open to the floor beneath. I'm placing first floor walls so as to be structural and minimize spans. The big question is what are the options on supporting floor and roof joists? I'm interested in the right balance of cost and air-tightness. Should I continue structural walls all the way to the ceiling? Yes, I know, architect and structural engineer path, but I'm just trying to get a good enough idea of feasibility and layout before I commit.



kited,
a real atvantage with the metal skin on a mono sloped roof is the panels are the finished roof or can be covered



on a School in Sarasota , FL.


on a house in Texas ...
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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28 May 2015 01:51 PM
Posted By Alton on 28 May 2015 12:13 PM
Some OSB SIPs can contain dimensional lumber to increase their span. Some metal skin SIPs can contain metal stiffeners to do likewise. Various factors such as loads, slopes, etc. help to determine span. I have seen more than one OSB SIP home with beams every 8' under the roof. This should be more energy efficient than inserting dimensional lumber (splines) within the SIP that replaces foam.

Their is also the use of splines that are structural to a degree and energy efficient, the 2 by's in the seams create a thermal bridge which you want to avoid if possible..

I have not seen beams 8' under roofs Alton, if the span is an issue the thickness of the sips can be increased.

If  a call is made to any manufacturer that ? can be resolved in 5 minutes by their in house engineers.
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28 May 2015 04:22 PM
a real atvantage with the metal skin on a mono sloped roof is the panels are the finished roof or can be covered


Ooh! That fits my cost minimizing bill.

I am liking more of what I read about the metal SIPs. One advantage I'm not fond of losing of the OSB SIPs is the precut electrical chases. I'm also not seeing metal SIPs with polyurethane, but if I'm looking a year or more down the road, and don't know where exactly, I'm not in the market yet for specifics...just learning the techniques for when I am.

Question 1: Can you use metal SIP roofs and OSB SIP walls?

Question 2: would it be cost effective if you're aiming for R20 slab, R40 walls and R60 roof to go with Metal SIP walls and then add extra insulation foam boarding to the interior and have to cut the electrical chases? How are Metal SIP houses usually wired/internally finished?

My main question is pretty much answered. I just wanted to know if the basic structure of the house was cost efficient. It sounds like there are tolerable options to make it possible.
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28 May 2015 05:56 PM
Wiring on a metal SIP structure is often done by furring out interior walls/ceiling (as is sometimes done in concrete block structures). In other words furring strips are attached every 24 inches, running vertically from the top of the wall down to a few inches above the floor. Another strip is attached horizontally near the floor. This creates a 1.5" deep space to use as an electrical chase with Romex and standard metal pancake boxes. The electricians like the freedom this creates, and the inspector can see all of the connections. The furring space can also be used for water supply, et cetera. It also adds a bit onto the total R-value, but could add even more R-value if you want to put extra insulation in there. Then it all gets finished with sheetrock.
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28 May 2015 07:20 PM
Jelly what might that cost a sq ft?
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28 May 2015 07:50 PM
what, Sheetrock? You've got to price it out. But the furring space also makes for a quieter SIP house.
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28 May 2015 08:15 PM
Posted By kited on 28 May 2015 04:22 PM
a real atvantage with the metal skin on a mono sloped roof is the panels are the finished roof or can be covered


Ooh! That fits my cost minimizing bill.

I am liking more of what I read about the metal SIPs. One advantage I'm not fond of losing of the OSB SIPs is the precut electrical chases. I'm also not seeing metal SIPs with polyurethane, but if I'm looking a year or more down the road, and don't know where exactly, I'm not in the market yet for specifics...just learning the techniques for when I am.

Question 1: Can you use metal SIP roofs and OSB SIP walls?

Question 2: would it be cost effective if you're aiming for R20 slab, R40 walls and R60 roof to go with Metal SIP walls and then add extra insulation foam boarding to the interior and have to cut the electrical chases? How are Metal SIP houses usually wired/internally finished?

My main question is pretty much answered. I just wanted to know if the basic structure of the house was cost efficient. It sounds like there are tolerable options to make it possible.



1. yes you can use both OSB sip walls and Metal SIP roofs together

2. an R- 42 wall would be 10" thick in metal and a 12" metal SIP would be R- 51, you can achieve R-57 with 2# density , but not worth the additional cost

ceiling would be furred with wood or 7/8" steel hi- hat furring
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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28 May 2015 09:11 PM
Posted By cmkavala on 28 May 2015 08:15 PM


2. an R- 42 wall would be 10" thick in metal and a 12" metal SIP would be R- 51, you can achieve R-57 with 2# density , but not worth the additional cost

ceiling would be furred with wood or 7/8" steel hi- hat furring

Chris are you getting the 12" EPS value from 1LB density or 1.5LB density EPS?

I thought 1LB density at 12" EPS is R-50 @ 40F  and  R-46 @ 70F

The R-Value of 1LB density EPS begins to drop as outdoor temperatures climb. So at a summer 95F day the 12" EPS would be around R-44. Low pitch/angle roofs would even perform worse.

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28 May 2015 09:33 PM
Posted By Lbear on 28 May 2015 09:11 PM
Posted By cmkavala on 28 May 2015 08:15 PM


2. an R- 42 wall would be 10" thick in metal and a 12" metal SIP would be R- 51, you can achieve R-57 with 2# density , but not worth the additional cost

ceiling would be furred with wood or 7/8" steel hi- hat furring

Chris are you getting the 12" EPS value from 1LB density or 1.5LB density EPS?

I thought 1LB density at 12" EPS is R-50 @ 40F  and  R-46 @ 70F

The R-Value of 1LB density EPS begins to drop as outdoor temperatures climb. So at a summer 95F day the 12" EPS would be around R-44. Low pitch/angle roofs would even perform worse.




1# minimum , not 1# nominal
and don't forget to add the value for the skins, everything adds R- Value,
but be aware that the skins perform differently on the walls than they do on the roof
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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28 May 2015 10:41 PM
Posted By Jelly on 28 May 2015 07:50 PM
what, Sheetrock? You've got to price it out. But the furring space also makes for a quieter SIP house.

The rock is .80-1.20 depending on your location not the issue

My point is that since metal sips is about a $1+ a sq more than OSB, adding the cost to fur everything out, run all electric kicks the cost per sq' up a lot over OSB. OSB needs no furring strips the built in wiring conduits make the electric less cost

I priced both out the metal with Chris, I think it comes out to about $10-13,000 more, with no specific advantage.

the OP wanted a build on budget................



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28 May 2015 10:50 PM
Posted By cmkavala on 28 May 2015 09:33 PM

1# minimum , not 1# nominal
and don't forget to add the value for the skins, everything adds R- Value,
but be aware that the skins perform differently on the walls than they do on the roof


What is the R-Value of 26 gauge steel?

What type of screws do to you recommend for attaching into the steel 26 gauge skins? Also, what torque setting do you set on the drill to prevent stripping it out.


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29 May 2015 07:51 AM
Posted By Lbear on 28 May 2015 10:50 PM
Posted By cmkavala on 28 May 2015 09:33 PM

1# minimum , not 1# nominal
and don't forget to add the value for the skins, everything adds R- Value,
but be aware that the skins perform differently on the walls than they do on the roof


What is the R-Value of 26 gauge steel?

What type of screws do to you recommend for attaching into the steel 26 gauge skins? Also, what torque setting do you set on the drill to prevent stripping it out.





see analysis:




all cordless drills are not created equal and torque setting are not universally the same ........ but a professional would use a muro self feeding screwgun with an adjustable setting,
if one it using a cordless drill you would adjust by "feel" not by a torque number, you know if you are over tightening the screws or not and would adjust your drill accordingly
Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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