methier
New Member
Posts:9
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| 29 Aug 2010 11:56 AM |
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Has anyone ever installed thin stone veneer (natural) over 2" XPS rigid foam ?
2x6 wall construction
1/2" plywood
tyvek or typar house wrap
Driwall rain screen 10mm
2" XPS foam
Metal lath
Scratch coat
Thin stone veneer
If so, how is the stone supported ? Due to the outwards projection caused by the foam, nails or screws to hold the metal lath is no longer sufficient.
What are the recommended solutions in this case ?
Bonus question...do I have the correct order of layers listed above ? ie: should the XPS be placed over the house wrap followed by the Driwall rainscreen, or as indicated above ?
Thanks |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 29 Aug 2010 01:44 PM |
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bear stone on footer ledge or steel angle bolted to foundation. I would not put rainsceen between plywood and foam, I would put between lath and foam or use paper backed lath |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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methier
New Member
Posts:9
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| 29 Aug 2010 08:08 PM |
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Thanks Chris.
You've seen this done before ? I know that regular (full thickness) stone is meant to be stacked and held up by the foundation wall, but I wasn't sure that this could be done with the thin stone product. All the installation instructions that I've seen indicate that this product is meant to be glued onto a wall surface and supported by the wall.
And anybody that I've talked to so far is stumped about how to install it... |
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Bruce Frey
Basic Member
Posts:429
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| 01 Sep 2010 02:01 PM |
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What do you mean by thin? Unless you are using stone tile (e.g., 12" x 12" x 3/8" thick) in a non-freezing climate where you can use adhesive, you need some mechanical fasteners. In commercial buildings, we think of "thin" stone as anything less than "cubic" which generally means less than 3" to 4" thick. Stone cladding needs to deal with vertical (deadload) and horizontal (wind and/or seismic) loads. Attachment is normally done with some type of patented fastener such as http://www.stoneclip.com/uni-strut.html using kerfs cut in the top and bottom of the stone pieces. Each fastener usually serves as a dead load anchor for the piece above it and as a windload anchor for the piece below it. Very large pieces may have intermediate windload anchors. As you can imagine, the anchors need to be taken back to structure, so they will penetrate the insulation. Rainscreen facades usually have open joints (hence the name) without grout, sealant or mortar so the space should be directly behind the stone. The air and water barriers usually go behind the insulation. We prefer a minimum 1" (2" is common), but we also use this space to absorb structural erection tolerances which (hopefully) is less of a problem in single family project. If the stone is thick enough (4 or so inches) to stack like bricks on a brick ledge or shelf angle, you just need brick tie type of anchorage and brick wall type detailing. Bruce |
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methier
New Member
Posts:9
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| 01 Sep 2010 09:18 PM |
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Bruce, thanks for the link to the stone clip fastener. Looks interesting. It would require a lot of nails or screws, one per stone, and these would have to be long enough to go through the 2" XPS foam, the rain screen and the1/2" plywood. But since each stone is held seperately it looks strong enough.
The stone that we were looking at is available at Rona and I believe that it is less than 2" thick (between 1.5" and 2").
Product is called Ledgestone Decorative wall ceramic, Mono Serra Ceramique.
Link: http://www.rona.ca/shop/shop?storeId=10001&catalogId=10051&page=1&langId=-1&keywords=84665331
There are similar products from other stone suppliers in town, but my wife likes the colour/style of the one sold at Rona, and it is a bit cheaper as well.
Are you saying that you would recommend an additional "water barrier" product in addition to the house wrap and the rain screen ?
When you say "We prefer a minimum of 1", are you referring to the amount of insulation or air gap ? In the case of the thin stone application, I don't see how there could be an air gap, so were you talking about the regular 4" stone application ?
With the use of the stone clip fastener, would this completely change the way the stone is installed ? In other words, no need for metal lath and scratch coat ? Or is it basically the same installation but the clips are in addition ?
Martin |
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Bruce Frey
Basic Member
Posts:429
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| 02 Sep 2010 05:37 AM |
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Thanks for the link. That makes it clearer. I couldn't find out much about the product (Japanese company, product manufactured in China), but it looks as if it is made to be installed as a tile with adhesive. I doubt it is thick enough to kerf and the joints around the pieces would not look good.
I would do as Chris sugggested (he probably understood what you were thinking better than I) and have a brick ledge or shelf angle to carry the weight and use the adhesive to hold it to the wall. Your idea of doing a plaster/stucco wall finish and gluing cast stone to it is probably OK. My only concern is that if you are in cold climate, freeze/thaw could pop the tiles if water gets behind them.
Since you are essentially doing a plaster/stucco wall, it should be detailed like one, so Chris is correct in suggesting that the rainscreen/drainage plane should be between the foam and the lath.
FYI, on a commercial building with larger pieces of stone, our wall buildup would typically be:
1. Structrure (usually concrete or masonry)
2. water/air/vapor barrier
3. stone supports attached to structure
4. insulation (supports penetrate insulation)
5. 1"-2" air space
6. stone with open joints
note: for using kerfed stone in a cold climate, the kerf on the top of the stone must be filled with sealant as it is installed or freeze/thaw will break the kerf.
Bruce |
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Bruce
Basic Member
Posts:142
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| 02 Sep 2010 09:16 AM |
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See http://www.buechelstone.com/PDF/NTVinstall.pdf for instructions on thin veneer installation. What you need to be sure about is the shear strength of the long screws holding the lath through the foam. You probably should consult an engineer to ensure the screws used will work properly. |
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Jelly
Veteran Member
Posts:1017
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| 02 Sep 2010 08:03 PM |
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Just to clear things up, Martin, yes the normal installation is to press the thin stone veneer into a wet scratch coat. The only thing complicating that is the foam layer. Hence the suggestion for something extra for the stone to bear on.
How much veneer are you installing? is it like a 12 foot high wall, or just a foot or two down by the foundation? |
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methier
New Member
Posts:9
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| 03 Sep 2010 10:41 AM |
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The house will be located in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada...so very cold climate. Here's a link to some snapshots from my Google Sketchup model which shows where the stone will be installed. The rest of the exterior will be stucco/EIFS. That's an entirely different problem  http://profile.imageshack.us/user/methier In case the above link doesn't work, here's a direct link to the front and rear elevation pictures: http://yfrog.com/n6frontelevationj http://yfrog.com/03readelevationj (Seperate topic, but I'm amazed at how easy and useful Google Sketchup is. Awesome tool for planning a new house) I understand the general idea of having something extra (in addition to the scratch coat) to hold the stone. What I'm still struggling to understand is exatly how the stone is supported. Is it as simple as having the first row of stones sitting on the foundation wall and then build up from there ? My foundation wall can be made an extra 2" thicker to allow this. I had been told that relying on the screws holding the metal lath is a bad idea since they will sag in the long run since they are sticking so far out due to the foam. Yes, I definitely intend on having this entire support system reviewed by an engineer. The designer/draftsman will consult an engineer, but I wanted to have a good idea of how this would work and if it had been done befoe. Thanks for all the comments and suggestions so far, Martin |
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Bruce
Basic Member
Posts:142
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| 03 Sep 2010 01:05 PM |
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The lath is screwed to the wall. The scratch coat is put on and the stone is stuck to the scratch coat with modified thinset. The modified part of the mix basically makes it sticky so the stones will stay put when placed. What keeps everything from falling to the ground is the screws that attach the lath to the wall. Then you are counting on the scratch coat and modified thinset to keep the stones on the lath.
Does that answer your question?
What I see as the issue in your case is the support for the screws. Typical installation have screws biting into something supportive rather quickly. I.E. Screw through lath and 30# felt and then right into the plywood and studs. In your case the 2" of foam provides little if any support for the screw. You will have all that weight bearing down on the screw causing a bending (shear)force since 2" is unsupported. I believe you should have an engineer specify the type and screw spacing to ensure it will hold the weight without the screws breaking due to the downward force. |
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methier
New Member
Posts:9
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| 03 Sep 2010 03:29 PM |
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tb1472000, thanks. Yes, it does answer my question in a way and you explained the problem better than I could...
--> screw will bend since there is a 2" portion of the screw (due to the foam) that is unsupported
What you are suggesting is that an engineer should analyze the length and thickness of the screws, and how many should be used, but to keep the same general installation approach as you described in your first paragraph.
What about the other suggestions to:
- bear the stone on the footer ledge
or
- use steel angle or some other type of support
Would either of these approaches help to support the stone and reduce to need (and cost) to use long and thick screws to hold the metal lath ?
I did read the installation guide that you provided with the link, and it is similar to other versions that I had read elsewhere. I think I understand the typical installation scenario. Where I get lost is the complications due to the 2" of foam.
I was hoping that I wasn't the first person to do this and that others could offer advice based on experience with this particular approach.
Thanks,
Martin |
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Jelly
Veteran Member
Posts:1017
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| 03 Sep 2010 06:14 PM |
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The way much thicker structural stone is supported is by bearing on a brick ledge poured with the foundation (and brick ties attached to the frame at prescribed intervals). So I think you can rest assured that your thin stone veneer would be supported if you added a brick ledge to the foundation and treated it like structural stone. Assuming your still in the design stage, it's probably not much more cost at all to have a brick ledge added. Would the foundation be a monolithic concrete pour?
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methier
New Member
Posts:9
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| 05 Sep 2010 01:15 PM |
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Jelly, yes, the foundation will be poured concrete. The foundation walls will be 8" thick where the finish will be EIFS. Where we have the thin stone, we can make the walls 2" thicker (10" foundation wall) or keep them at 8".
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greentree
Advanced Member
Posts:587
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| 09 Sep 2010 11:19 PM |
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The cultured stone and thin veneer stone I'm familiar with specify non rigid sheathing to be a max thickness of 1/2". The product you want to use seems like wall tile. If it is a tile then you need to follow TCNA details and I doubt they have one for your application. |
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jerkylips
Basic Member
Posts:359
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| 10 Sep 2010 10:33 AM |
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Posted By methier on 29 Aug 2010 11:56 AM
Has anyone ever installed thin stone veneer (natural) over 2" XPS rigid foam ?
2x6 wall construction
1/2" plywood
tyvek or typar house wrap
Driwall rain screen 10mm
2" XPS foam
Metal lath
Scratch coat
Thin stone veneer
If so, how is the stone supported ? Due to the outwards projection caused by the foam, nails or screws to hold the metal lath is no longer sufficient.
What are the recommended solutions in this case ?
Bonus question...do I have the correct order of layers listed above ? ie: should the XPS be placed over the house wrap followed by the Driwall rainscreen, or as indicated above ?
Thanks we did basically what you're describing, with one difference. Our XPS was only 1" vs. 2". The masons had no concerns about installing over it, and did basically as described in other replies - metal lathe, scratch coat, stone. The stone we used was natural stone, but a veneer stone rather than full thickness. The pieces varied a bit, but on average I'd say they were 1-1 1/2" thick. We talked with the masons before starting to talk about pouring in the brick ledge, but were told we didn't need it. |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 10 Sep 2010 02:15 PM |
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I agree - it isn't that screws or nails aren't sufficient, it is a matter of how big do they need to be to span 2" without bending or pulling out of the 2x6. And perhaps how much thermal bridging they create.
If you also used a brick ledge, I'd be concerned (only speculation) that the two methods (stone mortared/screwed to wall and stacked) might be incompatible due to expansion rates. |
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bp f150
New Member
Posts:29
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| 19 Sep 2010 08:50 PM |
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After reading the post I came up with possible suggestion (with possible drawbacks, but still a solution). What if you instaled a 1 inch insulation board (only where stone veneer is to be applied) then nail or screw 1 X material to studs, then fill in voids in between with 1 inch foam (I understand that this will cause some thermal brindging but should make the set up much more structural) to get the desired thickness. Afterwards the lath could be screwed into the 1 X (longer screws could be used to compress and hold everything together) and scratch coat over. My concern would be the need for a type a drainage plain for the 1X material.
I could be totaly wrong suggesting this approach. If so I am convinced somebody will let us know. In the mean time good luck.
The house looks nice. I hope you and your family will enjoy it when the time comes. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 21 Sep 2010 07:38 AM |
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bp f150;
your suggestion would work better than the full 2" that relys solely on the screw |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 21 Sep 2010 11:36 AM |
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Perhaps one could leave the filler foam out to maintain a drainage plane. Might take closer 1x placement or stronger mesh. I'd also consider non-wood 1x - fibercement or plastic. |
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ecoarchitect
New Member
Posts:29
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| 26 Dec 2010 02:39 PM |
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I would only 'consider' this assembly method with
thin stone veneer that is essentially a stone tile in essence applied like a hard coat exterior stucco to the XPS. |
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methier
New Member
Posts:9
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| 23 Jan 2011 03:00 PM |
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Talked to installers of thin stone veneer and distributor. Here's the conclusion:
-- adding the 2 inches of XPS foam really complicates the installation. Cannot use the brick ledge for this type (thin stone veneer) of installation. Also can't rely on the screws through the foam. The 2" overhang would cause the screws to bend (or they would have to be monster screws).
So here's the solution that I came up with. Construction will be starting in the Spring.
Basically, the solution is to add an extra layer of plywood, so the layers from inside to outside will be:
- 1/2" drywall
- vapor barrier
- R-20 spray foam within 2x6 studs
- 1/2" plywood
- R-10 XPS FOAM (2"). Not sure if the foam should be glued or screwed.
- 5/8" plywood, screwed through the foam and into the 2x6 framing studs
- house wrap (typar)
- driwall 10mm rainscreen
- metal lath screwed into the 5/8" plywood
- scratch coat
- thin natural stone veneer
From my perspective, this ends up being a straight forward installation of thin stone veneer on top of the 5/8" plywood. So the only extra complication of adding the foam is the need to add an extra layer.
Anybody see a problem with this approach?
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2157
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| 23 Jan 2011 03:05 PM |
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It might be simpler to use insulated roof decking instead of two layers of plywood. Only one installation trip around the building with the foam board already attached to the OSB/plywood. Just make sure the code inspector agrees that this will be sufficient bracing since the bonded foam will be up against the studs. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 23 Jan 2011 03:16 PM |
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make life simple and just use SIPs |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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ecoarchitect
New Member
Posts:29
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| 25 Jan 2011 12:02 PM |
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this assembly sounds just fine. |
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ecoarchitect
New Member
Posts:29
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| 25 Jan 2011 12:06 PM |
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also remember to consider some expansion or control joints in that outer layer of sheathing if you
have an extremely long run of stone material. some consideration for expansion should be allowed
as with other masonry. I would recommend not going beyong 20 feet in horizontal length without
a control joint. Likewise over a certain height the thin stone veneer should not be completely
monolithic.
Sven Erik Alstrom AIA
ECOLOGICAL ARCHITECTURE P.A.
www.ecologicalarch.com |
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eerkel
New Member
Posts:9
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| 14 Feb 2011 07:03 AM |
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Sorry to revive this old thread. I'm having to address similar questions as the OP (traditional 3-course stucco over 1" of XPS, so not as difficult).
My question is: doesn't putting hundreds of holes into the envelope (by screwing through the XPS, wrap, and sheathing), to attach the wire lath, cause water penetration issues? Is there a method to mitigate this? |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 14 Feb 2011 07:33 AM |
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Posted By eerkel on 14 Feb 2011 07:03 AM
Sorry to revive this old thread. I'm having to address similar questions as the OP (traditional 3-course stucco over 1" of XPS, so not as difficult).
My question is: doesn't putting hundreds of holes into the envelope (by screwing through the XPS, wrap, and sheathing), to attach the wire lath, cause water penetration issues? Is there a method to mitigate this? eerkel; the short answer is no consider a roofing application that typically has a plywood deck covered with 15# felt held down with hundreds of fasteners, then coverd with shingles held fastened with thouands of roofing nails .........all penetrating the shingles, felt and plywood. With all those penetrations there are no water penetration issues on a properly installed roof, a wall constructed as you propose is much less susceptible to water penetration when properly installed. Window and door flashings should be the bigger concern |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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eerkel
New Member
Posts:9
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| 14 Feb 2011 10:20 AM |
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@cmkavala - Good comparison. Thanks for responding!
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mnelson61
New Member
Posts:19
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| 20 Jan 2012 05:27 PM |
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It's probably too late for this advice but it sounds like you need this product: www.suretouch.ca
The fruit of many years of research, the SURETOUCH cladding system offers concrete advantages, in addition to all the benefits of stone and brick. Besides enhancing your home’s visual appeal, SURETOUCH adds considerable heat and sound insulation, all at a very reasonable price. SURETOUCH offers you a choice of four Collections: two natural-look concrete stone, one clay brick and one concrete brick. The system is ideal for both new construction and renovation projects. |
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greentree
Advanced Member
Posts:587
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| 07 Feb 2012 05:54 PM |
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Posted By eerkel on 14 Feb 2011 10:20 AM
@cmkavala - Good comparison. Thanks for responding!
Not so sure. Yes roofs have thousands of fasteners but they are hidden by the hanging shingle to flash the fastener. Lath has nothing to flash your fastener penetration other then the cladding assembly which can hold water, no? |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 07 Feb 2012 09:04 PM |
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Posted By greentree on 07 Feb 2012 05:54 PM
Posted By eerkel on 14 Feb 2011 10:20 AM
@cmkavala - Good comparison. Thanks for responding!
Not so sure. Yes roofs have thousands of fasteners but they are hidden by the hanging shingle to flash the fastener. Lath has nothing to flash your fastener penetration other then the cladding assembly which can hold water, no?
Greentree;
you are correct the answer is no....... lath is installed vertical, not on a slope. Water is not "held" vertally, it flows out along the felt or drainage plane behind the lath to weep holes(weep screed) below. The felt is the flash |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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ilgeo
Basic Member
Posts:180
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| 17 Feb 2012 12:28 PM |
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Chris,
In traditional plaster is the felt alone the drainage plane or is there an air space required? |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 17 Feb 2012 01:20 PM |
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ilgeo;
the felt is the moisture barrier, when the cement plaster is troweled into the wire mesh it does not completely fill in between the mesh/felt. It is "honeycombed" , this will create a natural drainage plane or slight void to allow water to drain to the bottom. |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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ICFcoatings
New Member
Posts:61
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| 04 Mar 2012 09:13 AM |
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you might want to look at StuccoMax instead, easier to apply, can be stamped . StuccoMax™ is a revolutionary one coat impact resistant stucco product for use on many exterior substrates and is ideal as a final finish for ICF buildings or SIPS or over conventional construction where ordinary stucco may be applied. StuccoMax™ may be applied in one coat and may be colored through the addition of stucco oxide powders or left in natural gray color. This unique material offers a perfect one coat smooth finish difficult to duplicate using conventional stuccos. Based on local building codes and ICF manufacturer requirements, StuccoMax™ may be applied directly over ICF forms, reducing installation times and costs compared to typical multi-coat stuccos. ICF Contractors will be able to offer single day applications as a preblended ready for mixing with water at the job site and is applied by conventional stucco sprayers or hand trowel. It can be left natural or painted after 48 hours. Costs less installed than traditional stucco. for more info see www.barrett-inc.com/stuccomax.php |
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