New house in the south.  Vinyl vs fiberglass, what is the answer?  Leaning towards fiberglass, but the locate salesman is pushing his vinyl windows over his  fiberglass windows.  This is a highly recommended window company.  Vinyl is cheaper by 5K, but that is not much if the fiberglass windows are a lot better.

Premium vinyl will not have any of the "issues" that many fiberglass dealers claim.

You will find that most of the high performance windows out there are vinyl.

If you don't have any aversions to the material, vinyl is just as good.

I live in a northern climate and am just about to spring for a full window replacement.  I would prefer fiberglass but the company who sells a premium line of vinyl windows showed me a sample and it looks terrific as well as being quite a bit more energy efficient than company B's fiberglass windows.

The fiberglass quote (a company an in-law works for) came in at $8k lower than the vinyl quote.  Dual low-e glazing for the fiberglass set, triple low-e glazing w/krypton gas fill for the vinyl set.

That is odd. You will typically find that the premium vinyl (even in triple pane) is comparable to the double pane fiberglass.

What vinyl window did you get quoted?

These were Season Guard, a private label window (made by... Siminton)?  Foam filled vinyl frames, lifetime guarantee.  U-2.0; SHGC-.19.  Don't have data for the fiberglass windows.  Dealer guaranteed a 40% reduction in energy costs which I find a bit optimistic.

Posted By Pipemajor on 30 Aug 2010 07:11 AM

These were Season Guard, a private label window (made by... Siminton)?  Foam filled vinyl frames, lifetime guarantee.  U-2.0; SHGC-.19.  Don't have data for the fiberglass windows.  Dealer guaranteed a 40% reduction in energy costs which I find a bit optimistic.

those are not Simonton

I've had a window sales and install business since 1980 and I've never heard of a vinyl window being more than a fiberglass. Right now we have a sale on my best window. triple glazed foam filled sash and frame double hung up to 101 ui installed for $350.00.  Also I've never had to replace a window because the vinyl failed.  The weatherstripping will fail before the sash or frame materials fail.

Posted By smartwall on 31 Aug 2010 08:05 AM
I've had a window sales and install business since 1980 and I've never heard of a vinyl window being more than a fiberglass. Right now we have a sale on my best window. triple glazed foam filled sash and frame double hung up to 101 ui installed for $350.00.  Also I've never had to replace a window because the vinyl failed.  The weatherstripping will fail before the sash or frame materials fail.

Quote for the vinyl product was at full retail.  The fiberglass quote was a "preferred customer" arrangement.

Posted By Pipemajor on 30 Aug 2010 07:11 AM

These were Season Guard, a private label window (made by... Siminton)?  Foam filled vinyl frames, lifetime guarantee.  U-2.0; SHGC-.19.  Don't have data for the fiberglass windows.  Dealer guaranteed a 40% reduction in energy costs which I find a bit optimistic.

Run.

Anyone that promises you a certain percentage in reduction of utilities without knowing more about the home is a charlatan to say the least.

Nothing is impressive about those numbers either.

There are several triple pane vinyl options that are U-Factors of 0.15 without the exotics of the 5 layer glass and xenon gas like the Serious Materials window.

Air leakage is another big component to focus on as well.  That SHGC is too low for your area.  You need something much closer to 0.30.

First off, IMHO the vinyl pricing here is WAY off the mark. Vinyl should be less. I am sure this decision is made, but for future readers, I shall opine;

If you want to know some truth about vinyl, google Vinyl and USGBC. Read about it. The USGBC overwhelming consensus is . . Vinyl is a terrible choice with serious environmental and health risks.

Vinyl is truly a TERRIBLE building material. Thermally, it performs , in theory, as well as the fiberglass they will tell you, but in truth, that is a controlled lab environment test, not real world suns heat and winter nights reality. You cant simulate real nature fluctuations like that in a lab.
Vinyl is a good choice for only ONE reason, that is budget. However, for many reasons, vinyl is a terrible choice:
a. it is a petroleum by-product.
b. it is soft and malleable (can/will melt in heat) and Off gasses for its entire life cycle. (This is where the black soot like material comes from on the inside of your car, vinyl and plastic parts off gassing - non smokers know what i mean)
c. it expands and contracts at tremendous rates (this is why they overlap vinyl siding by 6-8 inches)
d. in some areas, reflected sunlight from neighboring windows has melted the siding and windows on the home next to it. (Not covered by warranty) south facing windows suffer greatly
e. performance over the life cycle diminishes because of expansion and contraction of the materials. the U, R, & SHGC values of today are NOT the same in 3 years & 5 years.
f. Non Structural material that requires a substrate (typically wood or aluminum) to be structural

What is made from Fiberglass - Structural Columns, bridge beams, industrial catwalks, boats, airplanes, tennis rackets,underground fuel storage and chemical storage tanks, and of course CORVETTES (at least they used to be)!!!!! How many car bodies were ever made fully from plastic?

Its thermally set, wont melt, doesn't burn, and doesn't of- gas once fully cured (done in factories to capture and destroy VOC's from resin curing)
More importantly, its made of . . . wait for it . . . . Silica Sand spun into glass fibers. It takes 30% less energy to produce fiberglass than to produce vinyl, and 45% less than aluminum. Its truly an earth friendly material if your considering industrialized building materials (not earthbags, sod roofs, etc. which I am very fond of). However, its only fair to consider that there is a vast abundance of Sand for making fiberglass.

Its made of the same materials as the portion of your window you see through. therefore, if the glass and frame have the same expansion coefficient (almost nil), then they are likely to not pull apart from the frame and give way to thermal seepage. Many will argue that its only true setback is that it is not recyclable, and I would have agreed with them a year ago. However, much fiberglass is now being recycled into concrete reinforcement, asphalt reinforcement, and other aggregate building materials.

I understand how budget drives a decision, but in this case, I tell you it seems only logical to go with the superior materials. I encourage anyone to google them both and make an informed decision, if budget says vinyl, do vinyl, but know that you get what you pay for both in quality of materials and health risks. Also when evaluating the U values, and the SHGC ask then to show you that it is a whole window number, not the center of glass number published by the glass MFG. This is a common tactic in deception.

As I am sure you may have deduced, I am passionate about the subject. Not just windows, but good, sound, eco friendly cost efficient building materials throughout. I have studied extensively in the USGBC's LEED program, and several other green build disciplines. I chose what makes sense, practically and financially.

JH
NC, USA

JH;

why don't you post a link to the USGBC's article on vinyl windows so we are not looking for a needle in a haystack.


Saturns were made with plastic body panel parts and most cars that I can think of are all platic interiors (where you breathe)

I wish it were that simple. Its not specific to "windows" but all PVC.

There is a lot of information out there, for instance, the last report, which is the USGBC's report on vinyl, is a 200 page report, and when it was made public, the vinyl industry threatened suit. but here are a few places to look and then the last link is a second source of info.

http://www.usgbc.org/Docs/LEED_tsac/Greenpeace_US_PVCreport.pdf
https://www.usgbc.org/Docs/LEED_tsac/HCWH_PVC_Letter.pdf
https://www.usgbc.org/Docs/LEED_tsac/INFORM-PVC_Life_Cycle.Final.pdf
https://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=2372

http://www.healthybuilding.net/pvc/facts.html

Agreed! But it goes far beyond the simplicity of window choice. Vinyl flooring, VCT tiles, PVC pipes that carry your fresh and waste water, vinyl shower curtains, PVC/vinyl blinds, plastic televisions, the list is never ending. . . . I don't want to go "Mother Earth" here, I enjoy the modern conveniences like everyone else. But is it any wonder we suffer from the high incidences of cancer that we do? I understand the practicality of finances, and sometimes your wallet/budget decides for you. On the other hand, I am certainly open to a reasonable discussion or debate on the vinyl subject, so long as you bring coffee and doughnuts! :D

JH;
I think to single out vinyl windows is ridiculous, a quick look around my present environment would reveal that windows are the least of my worries.

I woudn't put fiberglass at the top of the healthy building product list either

Thanks Chris,

I might agree, if it weren't for the OTHER 6 or more reasons in my original post.

There are several reasons why $50 or even $100 more an opening just makes more sense for longevity and good responsible building sense. As time goes by, demand will drive those prices down to a more competitive margin between the two materials.

JH;

Have never seen a vinyl window melt or soften

it will off gas and so does fiberglass resins

Vinyl siding does not lap 6-8" , in fact you can't make it lap that much unless you alter the product , vinyl sidings have a built in notch for over lap ............recommended clearance is just 1/4" allowed for expansion for a 12-'6" long panels

in some instances reflection has melted? in some cases it has burned too when exposed to a flame , not sure how an isolated "instance" has any bearing on any product

you have no data on diminised performance due to expansion because is is simply conjecture

there are many "solid" vinyl windows and doorswith no metal or wood reinforcing

fiberglass fibers are carcinogenic,   research shows that the composition of this material (asbestos and fiberglass are both silicate fibers) causes similar toxicity as asbestos

Let's keep in mind that the "fiberglass" used in windows is glass fiber-reinforced plastic, so, similar to vinyl, it is made from petroleum products. If one wants to avoid petroleum products, both vinyl and fiberglass are out.

Because fiberglass is reinforced with glass, which has a low temperature dependence for thermal expansion, it has less thermal expansion than vinyl.

Thank you Lee, however that is not correct. Pultruded Fiberglass used in most windows are fiberlgass rovings and matting pulled through a hot resin bath, hot plates (fully curing the resins). The resins are the binder, and the total composition depends on which resin was used as a binder. (Resin systems available include standard polyester as well as vinylester, epoxy, and phenolic) of the three fiberglass companies I am very familiar with, The binder used is epoxy for a full cure. This creates a Thermally set product that will NOT change shape when heated. It is a substantially different process than that of other manufacturers who are manufacturing products that ARE Fiber reinforced plastic products applied over wood or using wood fibers, deceptively trying to capitalize on fiberglass technology. ( Google - "Pultruded Fiberglass" )

To set the record straight, Fiberglass encapsulated in epoxy resins that are FULLY cured during the manufacturing process do NOT off-gas, and "silicate fibers" are fully encapsulated and not exposed to the environment, Unless you are going to cut it or grind it in your home, it is of no consequence.

Chris - Thanks again for you opinions and comments on the subject, I respect others opinions, though I strongly disagree. These are not simply my postulations, but the culmination of several years of research and practical application. If you are in fact so confident about vinyl, the use vinyl! However, before you represent that the two materials are the same, please explain to those who may come later to read these posts why they do not make a structural column, catwalk, or bridge beam from vinyl? or a boat from vinyl? Thermal shock and CTE (Coefficient of thermal expansion), and softens when warm, brittle when cold are the reasons.

to your one point, I stand corrected - the vinyl overlap for siding is NOT 6-8", that is the minumim distance of nailing from the edge of the siding, the expansion overlap is 1/2 inch PER PANEL depending on whose siding, its thickness, etc.

to your statement regarding my conjecture, the CTE of Vinyl (PVC) is 28.0 and that of plate glass is 5.. do the math man. or look it up. (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html)
or as a more direct comparison of CTE product to product - CTE-linear (CLE) of PVC pipe @ 75 degrees is 2.7" vs 0.92" of pultruded fiberglass pipe. ( http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-expansion-pvc-d_782.html)
I did not quote take any information from window manufacturers websites becuse they are obvioulsy biased.

Do some research and homework before you espouse to be an expert on all things, or take to task and denigrate others who offer an opinion that does not agree with yours. In fact, I see no verifiable evidence offered by you other than your bloviations.

To the reader that comes here later to read these posts, I suggest they look at all the facts and decide for themselves what is in their own best interests. Lastly, you can go to this website ( http://vinyl-windows.blog.com/ ) and read a collection of what the National organizations, including the Department of energy, has to say about fenestration product and the use of vinyl. each of their statements has verifiable references.

Jhark312-

In your description of fiberglass, you state: "The resins are the binder, and the total composition depends on which resin was used as a binder. (Resin systems available include standard polyester ... "
From the Merriam-Webster on-line dictionary,
"Definition of POLYESTER
: any of a group of polymers that consist basically of repeated units of an ester and are used especially in making fibers or plastics…"

Therefore, you have verified my definition of fiberglass.

Perhaps you could also tell us the feedstock for polyester and the other resin systems, keeping in mind that you have already told us that "However, for many reasons, vinyl is a terrible choice:
a. it is a petroleum by-product."

Lee

JH;

While research and theories are good, I base my opinions of 40 years of “real life” experience in the sales, installation and warranty servicing of many building materials. While I never claim to be an expert on all things, I  do happen to have “hands on experience “ in using probably over 5,000 window units made from wood, aluminum and vinyl. I don’t need to “do the math” on the thermal coefficients of PVC and glass to know that vinyl windows are the least problematic and never had a problem with  the sash or frames, only problem has been an occasional bad seal on the insulated glass.

The http://vinyl-windows.blog.com/  website is an obvious bogus site set up to malign the vinyl window industry.

It is also odd that DOE has a problem with the vinyl windows so much that they put their “Energystar” approved sticker on their windows?

PS: redo your homework……………………. fiberglass resins continue to “off gas” for months, The toxic element in fiberglass is polyester resin. Polyester resin has a styrene carrier which outgasses VOCs.