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Solar PV Grid Tied Payback (for me)
Last Post 21 Apr 2010 06:11 PM by taylen24. 22 Replies.
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geome
 Advanced Member
 Posts:987
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| 08 Dec 2009 03:22 PM |
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I installed a geothermal heat pump earlier this year and I am now considering a solar PV grid tied system. I know nothing about solar, so please bear with me. I am primarily interested in how many years it will take to recoup the cost of this solar project.
Background: House is approximately 2400 sq. ft. in SW VA. House faces WSW. Gable end faces SSE. House is Cape style, but 2 story in the main part of the house, and a 1 story Master bedroom (approx 24'x24') that is attached to the SSE gable end of the house. Approximately 3.5 sun hours per day. Approximately 1/2 to 3/4 acre of unused, cleared, mowed, relatively flat, land behind house that is beyond what I call the "back yard". So, putting panels there (if feasible) would not present a problem as long as the county doesn't have any restrictions. Yearly electric cost is $1,884.
I see in the Affordable Solar web site that an average system cost (installed) is approximately $7.00/watt.
To provide 100% of our electricity needs, we would need 15.48 DC kW per the web site.
$7 (per watt) x 15.48 (kW) = $108,360? $109,360 x .7 (30% tax credit) = $75,852? $75,852 / $1,884 (electric cost/yr) = 40.3 year payback?
Is the $7.00 installed cost per watt that I used too high? Did I make other mistakes here? Even if a system cost half this amount, payback would be 20 years instead of 40 years. How long is a typical warranty on the various components (panel, mounting, inverter, etc.)? Are there other expenses to being grid tied, or does the above cost cover everything?
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 08 Dec 2009 08:02 PM |
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To provide 100% of your electricity needs, you'll need to go one of two routes:
1. Proceed with a battery-less system and use a REP (Retail Electric Provider) that will allow you to 'bank' kWh that you put on to the grid (in excess of what you use during the day).
2. Make REP not a factor, and instead, do your storage with batteries - i.e., a battery-based grid tie system.
The 2nd option is much more expensive than the 1st. You're best economic point will come with a battery-less grid-tie system, combined with a REP provide that provides for 'banking' unused (at the moment kWh).
Best regards,
Bill
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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[email protected]
 New Member
 Posts:1
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| 08 Dec 2009 08:13 PM |
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For a basic explanation of solar energy systems, you may like to listen to a podcast with an industry pro that I just did - check out www.hofpodcast.com and pick the one on solar. We talk a lot about the incentives, costs, paybacks, how it works and what not. Should be interesting for you. Good Luck - Steve |
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geome
 Advanced Member
 Posts:987
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| 09 Dec 2009 10:15 AM |
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I just used 100% to calculate the amount of years for a payback. I assume that for a 50% solar system (for example) the number of years would (pretty much) be the same since the solar cost would be approximately half, and the electricity savings per month (from the utility) would be roughly be half too.
It sounds to me that strictly from the perspective of payback, that solar does not sound like a good idea for us. Just wanted someone to check my calculations. For us, it paid to do the geothermal with an 8 year payback on the incremental cost vs a conventional air source heat pump and a 17 year payback on the entire system (the units should hopefully last 25 years with the ground loop lasting much longer). What else are people doing in terms of energy efficient improvements that "over time" will pay for themselves? I'm defining "over time" as at least several years before the service life of the improvement is up. |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 09 Dec 2009 10:34 AM |
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I'd recommend you consider a grid-tie only system (no batteries) for maximum economic point, and relook at your numbers.
You should be able to get a system installed complete at $6.00 / watt. At least this is the case in the Dallas area.
Cut your size down to 10 KW (DC), or less, to be able to take advantage of all rebates, incentives, and tax credits. At this point you should be able to cut the installation cost in half - figure $3.00/watt your final project cost.
Look at what kind of 'banking' of unused electricity you can do with your electric provider.
Bottom line? I'll bet your break even is somewhere at 10 - 15 years.
Also, consider a lease purchase arrangement (what I'm doing) such that you don't have any up front capital expenses.
I too have geothermal HVAC, and indeed it's payback is significantly better. But all energy reduction actions will always prove to be more 'lucrative,' than self generating energy efforts.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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geome
 Advanced Member
 Posts:987
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| 09 Dec 2009 11:18 AM |
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Thanks Bill. I didn't know the cost reductions could be so high.
Who would a lease be through? What items are leased as opposed to owned? I assume the utility savings pay for the lease? Basically, anything you can share about a lease would be helpful. :-)
From an installation perspective (house described above), is solar practical for us? |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 09 Dec 2009 12:24 PM |
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If you want to own the system, you'll have to decide if $30K spent to generate 20 years of electricity is worth it to you (assuming a 10 KW (DC) system, and assuming project cost after rebates/incentives/credits nets @ $3/W).
You can use http://www.pvwatts.org to help make the decision.
For example, using PVWatts and using it's default assumptions, for a 10 KW (DC) system, for my geographic location, I'd save $1500 the first year (at 11 cents per kWh), and higher amounts in succeeding years depending on what future utility rates are. If you assume rates rise 6% annually, the rough break even point is about 13.5 years. The lease purchase option eliminates all up front capital and expense expenditures. In return, you'll make monthly payments, at a rate guarenteed to reduce your kWh rate by 20 or 30% (depending on size of monthly payment you choose). This is the option I chose.
Best regards,
Bill
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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geome
 Advanced Member
 Posts:987
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| 09 Dec 2009 01:30 PM |
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Great web page With our rates, we are looking at 17 (to 23 depending on variables) years for a payback. Where can a person learn more about lease options? Should I contact a solar panel installer? |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 09 Dec 2009 02:20 PM |
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Geome, I am executing a lease purchase contract with this company: Infinergy Wind and Solar (see http://www.infinergywindandsolar.com/ ). Contact Murray Hambrick at the phone number / email address in the web site. Feel free to tell him that I encouraged you to contact him. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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gregj
 Basic Member
 Posts:326
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| 10 Dec 2009 03:48 PM |
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I don't get how your connecting your current $1884 electric cost with a 15.48 kw system. You need to figure the amount of electricity produced by this system and it's annual value (it won't be $1884). The value would be some combination of what you would have to pay if you had to buy the electricity that you actually use from the PV system and what you can sell the excess unused portion for.
If it was me I'd add in an inflation factor for electricity which would make the system pay off faster. Hard to guess what that is but certainly no less than 3% and depending on your local power plants fuel source and hard to quantity potential greenhouse gas regulations (cap and trade etc) it could easily exceed 10%.
But I'd also add in the cost of money which would lengthen the payback period. You'll either be paying interest on a loan to buy it (say 7%) or if you're paying cash you're losing the opportunity to invest it elsewhere and make say 6-8%.
3 1/2 hrs of sunshine per day doesn't sound right at all. I'm no PV solar expert but it seems it should be much higher unless you are in a poor area for solar power..
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redlion
 New Member
 Posts:1
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| 11 Dec 2009 09:59 AM |
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I am in the process of executing a lease purchase contract with Infinergy as well. I live in PA which has tremendous rebates right now. The cost to me will be $10,000 over 5 years for a 9.2 KW system. I currently spend $2,000 per year on electric. For me it was a no brainer! I would also recommend you give Murray a call. You can tell him I encouraged you to call as well. |
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Ona
 Basic Member
 Posts:189
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| 18 Dec 2009 08:19 AM |
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3.5 sun hours is not the same as 3.5 hours of sunshine. Sun hours refers to average daily peak sun.
You can see a sun hour map at: http://www.solar4power.com/map2-global-solar-power.html
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183eej
 Basic Member
 Posts:127
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| 22 Dec 2009 05:11 PM |
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I installed a 6kw system on my home in North Texas this past summer and the production numbers from pv watts indicates it will provide 8,422 kwh per year or about 88% of my homes total needs. After an Oncor rebate of $2.46 per watt and the 30% federal tax credit, the net cost per watt was $3.48 to install or just under $21,000. The warranty on the panels is 25 years so the annual cost of electricity from these panels will be $835 before any maintenance is considered. Dividing the $835K by the annual production of 8,422 kwh per year indicates my cost per kwh will be about 10 cents per watt for the next 25 years.
Assuming 3% energy inflaction, the payback would be around 19 years. 6% energy inflation improves the payback to around 16 years and 10% energy inflation drops it another 3 years to 13. None of which are very attractive financially and Oncor even sweetened the pot for me. However, 10 cents per kwh looks pretty good for someone who is not interested in dealing with energy inflation in retirement.
Did I make a good financial choice? We'll see. I basically made a bet that I'll remain in this house long enough to get my money back whether it's to pay off the loan for the solar panels or as the value of the home increases as the price of energy goes up.
What's interesting about this exercise, that I wanted to leave with everyone, is that by borrowing money at a fixed rate for the life of the mortgage on the solar panels, I was able to lock in my electric rates with 2009 dollars for the next 25 years. And I am pretty confident the value of the home will increase faster than homes that are not net or near net zero like mine.
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| Dale Walker<br>EarthTap<br>www.earthtapenergy.com<br>Where the sun never sets on energy savings<br> |
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gregj
 Basic Member
 Posts:326
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| 23 Dec 2009 03:50 PM |
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Posted By 183eej on 12/22/2009 5:11 PM I installed a 6kw system on my home in North Texas this past summer and the production numbers from pv watts indicates it will provide 8,422 kwh per year or about 88% of my homes total needs. After an Oncor rebate of $2.46 per watt and the 30% federal tax credit, the net cost per watt was $3.48 to install or just under $21,000. The warranty on the panels is 25 years so the annual cost of electricity from these panels will be $835 before any maintenance is considered. Dividing the $835K by the annual production of 8,422 kwh per year indicates my cost per kwh will be about 10 cents per watt for the next 25 years.
Assuming 3% energy inflaction, the payback would be around 19 years. 6% energy inflation improves the payback to around 16 years and 10% energy inflation drops it another 3 years to 13. None of which are very attractive financially and Oncor even sweetened the pot for me. However, 10 cents per kwh looks pretty good for someone who is not interested in dealing with energy inflation in retirement.
Did I make a good financial choice? We'll see. I basically made a bet that I'll remain in this house long enough to get my money back whether it's to pay off the loan for the solar panels or as the value of the home increases as the price of energy goes up.
What's interesting about this exercise, that I wanted to leave with everyone, is that by borrowing money at a fixed rate for the life of the mortgage on the solar panels, I was able to lock in my electric rates with 2009 dollars for the next 25 years. And I am pretty confident the value of the home will increase faster than homes that are not net or near net zero like mine.
This is where I'm looking at it differently. If you invested that 21000 and yielded an 8% return then you would earn $1680 the first year and more each succeeding year and at the end of those 25 years you would have quite a nest egg of $48,624. That is your true cost if you are buying with cash. If you are borrowing the money then you have to look at the interest costs as well not just the principal amount borrowed. So your $21000 over 25 years at say 7% would cost you $1776.24 per year or $44,526 for the 25 years. Looking at it this way your cost is more like 21 cents per kwh and payback is considerably longer than your estimates. Another factor to examine: Do solar panels actually last 25 years? Are there panel manufacturers who have been at it 25 years to back up their product for that long. Or is the warranty a feel-good marketing gimmick. Not trying to discourage using solar. Just feel the need to look at it objectively when discussing finances. |
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183eej
 Basic Member
 Posts:127
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| 23 Dec 2009 05:10 PM |
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You're right. I did ignore these things. Even at 21 cents per kwh, however, the point is that debt can be a useful tool in fixing a cost that, last year taught us, can begin to spin out of control. Once I have some degree of assurance I know what my future costs will be in retirement, whatever they are, I can plan around that relative certainty and enjoy my later years without grieving over whether I will be able to pay the next month's utility bill.
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| Dale Walker<br>EarthTap<br>www.earthtapenergy.com<br>Where the sun never sets on energy savings<br> |
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 23 Dec 2009 05:46 PM |
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A couple of additional notes here:
1. Most panel manufacturers have warranties for 20 or 25 years to produce at least 80% of nominal. Many/most of the higher quality level panels installed today will be working forever, just at a reduced rate.
2. Inverter replacement needs to be planned for every 10 - 15 years. This is another cash expense to plan for.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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183eej
 Basic Member
 Posts:127
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| 24 Dec 2009 08:46 AM |
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I went with a group from DFW Airport several months back to talk Exceltech in Ft Worth about their inverters. The concept is to change from a single inverter for the whole panel array to individual inverters attached to each panel. This is supposed to modularize solar arrays and allow people to build their arrays as they can afford it and reduce the upfront costs associated with wiring the single inverter for the whole array.
Another feature, that I may not be able to articulate very well, is it is supposed to prevent panels that are shaded in the late afternoon, for example, from degrading the performance of the whole array. My understanding of single system inverters is the total performance of an array is restricted by the lowest performing panel.
As a result, I am much more diligent about monitoring my panels for egret bombs now. |
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| Dale Walker<br>EarthTap<br>www.earthtapenergy.com<br>Where the sun never sets on energy savings<br> |
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 24 Dec 2009 09:59 AM |
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I think the individual inverter per panel products are going to dramatically change the residential portion of the solar PV industry.
The big question most have is focused on the reliability of inverters in the same environment as the panels.
The DIY market will also be enhanced, as the inverter-per-panel product eliminates 600 V systems being put into residential structures. Until now, 600 V systems were limited to putting into commercial structures only.
The inverter-per-panel product also makes the system more tolerant of design errors due to shading, angle and tilt differences from panel to panel.
Enphase seems to me to have the biggest market share. Haven't heard of Exceltech's progress so far.
Should be an interesting next few years, as the well-entrenched design-based-on-central-inverters industry segment battles with the inverter-at-each-panel segment.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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jonr
 Senior Member
 Posts:5341
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| 24 Dec 2009 03:35 PM |
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I currently see some panels at $1/watt and small inverters at $.75/watt. Add some rebates and it is getting feasible.
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Bill Neukranz
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1103
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| 25 Dec 2009 12:55 AM |
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Posted By jonr on 12/24/2009 3:35 PM
I currently see some panels at $1/watt and small inverters at $.75/watt. Add some rebates and it is getting feasible. The $1/watt panels are not yet UL Listed, which is a major impediment for anyone wanting to obtain rebates from electric utilities. The $1/watt panels may be just as good / functional, but, additionally, many / most municipalities that require an inspection, as part of installing a grid-tie-only PV system, won't approve them. So the $1/watt panels end up having to be most of time used for DIY efforts and/or off-grid applications - which is quite a sizeable market. Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br> American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A href="http://www.americaneei.com"> (www.americaneei.com)</A></br> Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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