I appreciate all of your professional feedback on all of my geo questions and concerns.  I am now trying to see if geo is the right fit for my Uncle who is retiring to Texas and wants to build a new home on his land there.  I am in NY and have limited knowledge of the site.

His situation:

Bullard, TX (closest weather station Tyler, TX ~100 miles from Dallas)
HDD = 2299 (3 yr avg)
CDD = 2808 (3 yr avg)

Close enough to a lake where they have the right to pump out water and use it for their irrigation.

No access to natural gas.

I've already stressed that it is very important to make it an efficient home first so that whatever HVAC he choses will be smaller and his future fuel costs will be lower.  He is planning on a tight wood framed with spray foam insulation.  I believe he discounted SIPs and ICF due to cost.

He is currently looking for a designer/builer (anyone know one?).  I've recommended he do the basics like a tight & well insulated home, use of passive solar, hot water heat recovery.  He also seems interested in geo but I want to be sure it's a good fit for him. 

If anyone knows of a good geo installer in the area, please let me know.  I am concerned that he will end up with a newer/less experienced installer leaving him with problems during his retirement.

I thought that this might be a good application for geo because the HDD and CDD are so close.  Maybe a pump and dump to the lake would be allowed?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?  I know it's not a lot of info and he will need to speak with an installer to get the nitty gritty, but some general thoughts would be appreciated.  For example, if he builds an 1800 sq ft home and has a manual J calc of X, what ton geo would he need?

How about a very efficient conventional heat pump? You could go top of the line, 18+ SEER, 10+ HSPF, two stage compressor, for much lower cost and not have to worry about drilling, pumping etc.

From my experience as a consultant helping people work through the logistics and finances of heating system replacements, modern, high end conventional heat pumps are best suited for efficient homes in mild climates.

For us, two top of the line air source heat pumps would have cost the same as the two geothermal units we installed (after tax credit.)

Must be very different than it is here (Pennsylvania). In this locale, it costs at least $20/foot to drill a well and the GSHP units typically sell for much more. With the 30% fed discount, they cost about the same, so you're left with a surcharge of about $4,000/ton for drilling. Plus trenching, manifolds, etc. For a well built, energy efficient home, I'd still probably go air source vs. ground source for simpler long-term maintenance.

Posted By tinoue on 08 Mar 2010 03:27 PM
I'd still probably go air source vs. ground source for simpler long-term maintenance.

Let's see...

Air source lives outside. Heat, cold, rain, snow, sun, dogs, kids and every sort of creepy crawler.

Ground source lives inside. Climate controled.

Care to revise your simpler maintenance statement??

Bergy

Not to mention unit longevity, but Ona already knows that.

Not at all. :-)

While I'd love to have a system in a nice, climate controlled area, keeping an outdoor system out of trouble is a whole lot easier than having to acid flush and pressure test heat exchangers, check antifreeze quality, ensure pumps are working properly, not to mention the installation issues that are invisible and difficult to diagnose, such as improper loop grouting, pinched ground loops, leaky manifolds etc. etc.

Don't get me wrong, I have a GSHP and love the technology. But in a small heat/cooling load home, that might take 3-tons on a hard day, I simply can't justify a GSHP.

Is there some hard data on where/why these claims of outdoor compressors having 1/2 the lifetime of indoor compressors come from?  

Or just get an air source heat pump with a lifetime (as long as you own it) compressor warranty.  Much better than 5 year geo warranties.

Posted By Bergy on 08 Mar 2010 05:35 PM

Posted By tinoue on 08 Mar 2010 03:27 PM
I'd still probably go air source vs. ground source for simpler long-term maintenance.

Let's see...

Air source lives outside. Heat, cold, rain, snow, sun, dogs, kids and every sort of creepy crawler.

Ground source lives inside. Climate controled.

Care to revise your simpler maintenance statement??

Bergy

Here's an interesting question, why couldn't you have a roof over the ASHP?  While it's still outside, it would be protected from the effects for Rain, Snow, Ice, Leaves and Sun. I would think that will allow it to last longer than an unprotected unit.

Roofs over ASHPs take away some of the "A" in ASHP. ASHPs lose efficiency if any of the air around them passes through the coil more than once, and a roof may make that happen.

As to the OP question. it is hard to make the call. Weather extremes tend to work in favor of geo, but high drilling costs work against it.

A pond loop could greatly reduce upfront costs, but it would depend upon being able to sink loops 8+ feet into the lake, and the lake not getting too warm in summer.

If well water is of good quality and freely available, then an open loop that discharges into the lake could be both the cheapest and most efficient option.

If the house is smallish and very well insulated and sealed, then it may only need a couple tons of HVAC and the economics move away from geo.

Posted By jonr on 08 Mar 2010 06:26 PM
Is there some hard data on where/why these claims of outdoor compressors having 1/2 the lifetime of indoor compressors come from?  

Or just get an air source heat pump with a lifetime (as long as you own it) compressor warranty.  Much better than 5 year geo warranties.

The Delmarva Penninsula is a sand bar surrounded on three sides by blowing salt air and sand.  I know of one community where the average life span of the outside unit is three years at best, no matter what unit you choose.  In the fine print of most building materials fine print, anything exposed to our normal is not gauranteed.

Ona,
Once plans are drawn up and a heat loss/gain calculation is performed we can help you more.
Joe

Thanks for all your thoughts. This is exactly what I wanted.

Since my Uncle is currently looking for a designer, the plans are a bit away. But as Joe stated, that will be the best place to really determine the best system.

Thanks Again!

Ok, agreed on special cases of salt air (although I've seen it chew up everything inside a house too).

Also, note that a warranty that doesn't fully include labor is largely a non-warranty.

Posted By jonr on 10 Mar 2010 08:00 AM

Also, note that a warranty that doesn't fully include labor is largely a non-warranty.

The industry norm is part only warranties some manufacturers offer no labor save for out of box failures. Most other labor warranties are purchased service contract whether from the manufacturer or an outside insurer.

Buyer beware as many outside insurers have gone bankrupt. Also as with any other service contract try to get the price and see if you wouldn't be better off banking the money against a repair.

Finally note that some service contracts offer a discount rate for repairs. You may have to make up the difference if a company can not be found that will accept their rate.

j

We're mulling offering an extended labor warranty in exchange for a fairly priced semiannual service contract, our thinking being the checkups would head off most major failures and identify abusive operation, the most significant being poor air filter maintenance.

We have one Lulu of a customer who will complain bitterly about her system and have a brand new filter in it 10 minutes before we arrive

I wonder how easily it would be to gin up a cheap mechanical ESP indicator that would capture the peak and hold it until reset...

I think you are on the right track with instrumentation or data loggers that can prove what is really happening in the recurring or intermittent cases. Something like "my electric bills is too high" is pretty subjective and worse, some people just like to have visitors.

Curt the hardest thing for a new contractor to quantify is the value of their time. A geo service contract should cost more than one for a conventional furnace and A/C, and generally wouldn't include compressor, fan coil or ground loops.
While folks might suggest that they should get a check-up and data logging equipment for $100/year as well as part and labor warranty, a viable business can not afford it at a price people will pay.
For the dirty filter gal, put an ill fitting knock out plug downstream of the filter. It will whistle whenever filter won't let enough air pass . If you tweek it, she'll have a hard time ignoring it.
J

I was thinking more along the lines of of $200-$300 per year, or building it into the initial system price. There has to be enough money in it to pay a competent tech to spend the time to do the job right.

Our niche is high end, mostly beachfront, and very much reference based. It's an add-on to a custom home building business, filling a vacuum in the Jax area - no competent geo installers in a million plus metro area. Right now we are toying with fielding a tech and a van more or less full time and filling in the gaps with high end air source repairs and changeouts. I'm keeping my day job for now.

I'm auditing classes at the local community college to fill in a few gaps in my theory-heavy engineering backround (Ouch - that was the HOT end of the torch...) but also to identify promising techs.

I've come to the conclusion that one of the biggest green investments government could make would be to fund an increase in standards at local HVAC VoTech programs in metro areas. fewer knuckle-draggers could skate through the programs and the result could be greatly improved installs, allowing equipment to much more closely approach advertised SEER ratings...alas, maybe a pipe dream.

Posted By Ona on 08 Mar 2010 10:12 AM

I appreciate all of your professional feedback on all of my geo questions and concerns.  I am now trying to see if geo is the right fit for my Uncle who is retiring to Texas and wants to build a new home on his land there.  I am in NY and have limited knowledge of the site.

His situation:

Bullard, TX (closest weather station Tyler, TX ~100 miles from Dallas)
HDD = 2299 (3 yr avg)
CDD = 2808 (3 yr avg)

Close enough to a lake where they have the right to pump out water and use it for their irrigation.

No access to natural gas.

I've already stressed that it is very important to make it an efficient home first so that whatever HVAC he choses will be smaller and his future fuel costs will be lower.  He is planning on a tight wood framed with spray foam insulation.  I believe he discounted SIPs and ICF due to cost.

He is currently looking for a designer/builer (anyone know one?).  I've recommended he do the basics like a tight & well insulated home, use of passive solar, hot water heat recovery.  He also seems interested in geo but I want to be sure it's a good fit for him. 

If anyone knows of a good geo installer in the area, please let me know.  I am concerned that he will end up with a newer/less experienced installer leaving him with problems during his retirement.

I thought that this might be a good application for geo because the HDD and CDD are so close.  Maybe a pump and dump to the lake would be allowed?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?  I know it's not a lot of info and he will need to speak with an installer to get the nitty gritty, but some general thoughts would be appreciated.  For example, if he builds an 1800 sq ft home and has a manual J calc of X, what ton geo would he need?

Ona,

My home is west of Bullard near DFW Airport between Dallas and Ft Worth and is just under 1,900 SF and has a 2 ton Earthlinked system.  I used 2x6 stick framing, spray foamed the walls and sealed the attic, put in low-e vinyl windows and incorporated passive solar.  The geo unit and has been averaging $50/month for heating, cooling and hot water.  Down this way, I would recommend your uncle to be sensitive to humidity control if he builds a tight home similar to mine.  Especially, near Tyler where the climate can get pretty steamy in the summer.  Tight homes in Texas have a tendency to have mold problems if the equipment is not sized properly.  

As far as reputable builder in the Tyler area is concerned, I don't have any good leads but he might consider being his own GC.  I used the Owner Builder Network to build my home and plowed the ~20% I saved in GC fees into the energy efficiency improvements.  At the Owner Builder orientation I attended, I was sold on the concept by a housewife with two children who presented a slide show on the home she built south of Dallas using this resource.  If your uncle is interested in doing a road trip to DFW and seeing what I did, I'll be happy to show him the features I incorporated into my home.  So, feel free to pass along my contact information.