In your own special way - you guys are all heroes to me! 

If you had followed Rob, as I have, in the RPA blog and elsewhere, you would know that he is the ultimate DIY advocate. He does it for a living. His was not to spank you but rather to warn you.

I have certified hundreds of professionals and have taken many homeower calls as a contractor, homeowner and manufacturer of condensing boilers. Robs concerns are valid and his position sound. It is simply not good practice for the average layman to tackle state-of-the-art ModCons boilers without doing his homework and having a professional sign-off on the final product.

Smart guys do as they please and suffer the consequences without blaming manufacturers, distributors, contractors or inspectors. Lawyers make the whole thing a tougher to call.

The fact is, many people are spending many dollars poorly.

If those in the industry can get the professionals and/or the DIYer to read the installation manual and properly apply the product, prayers have been answered.

treeguy,

I said several times it doesn't matter how smart you are or what your ability is, that is irrelevant to the issues I am concerned with. not being smart or able is of course a concern, but being smart and able is not enough. You keep taking everything I say as an insult... not sure what else I can do to dissuade you from thinking that, other than tell you you're right, which I don't believe.

for the record you can't "get the tools required" to do this properly without professional assistance of any kind. By the time you purchased a combustion analyzer you'd have been ahead of the game getting the boiler installed... that's about a thousand dollar tool and that's a plain requirement to a clean boiler install. That's why I say you DO NOT have the tools to do this. because you don't, and can't get them for a price that would make this make any sense, typically at least. am I wrong?

I posted the exact circumstance that DIY boiler installs are safe under: when you have a good tech with a combustion analyzer involved to certify your results, a supply chain, and a warranty from your reseller in writing.

If you do not have those 3 things... all 3... you are making a mistake and you're wrong to go down this road, plain and simple. You might get lucky, but that doesn't make it a good idea any more than skipping homeowner's insurance is a good idea. Doing this doesn't mean you are incompetent. but it does mean you're into taking risks. Good luck, but you'll just have to forgive me if I still say you're wrong to do this.

If you DO have all 3, go forth with confidence!

Rob... I definitely agree with your 3 points. But... Charlie sounds more compentent than most the guys I have ever met in the business here. I think the way to get us all to agree would be to suggest Charlie aquire a combustion anylizer along with Munchkin training... and start to service such in his area... That way we would kill all the birds in this flock with one newly aquired fellow highly caring and trained professional!

Charlie... Rob and I and all... wish you the best..... and I for sure believe you are ready to take the leap into being a radiant floor guy for your area of Colorado.

All in favor for voting Charlie in the high sacred club of radiant specialty heating guys... say aye:

aj; aye

heheehee,

aye.

PS My combustion analyser...more like $3000.00 and then you have to know how to use it.

insert pic?

I wanted to insert this cute pink unicorn... anyone know how to do it?

http://www.clipartof.com/details/clipart/39227.html

@jack: Trust me, it's crossed my mind. I've got a buddy who grew up installing furnaces with his pops who prodded me in that direction. My concern is with the cost involved in starting up said side-business (and it would be a side endeavor. I'm not quite ready to come down out of the canopy). I'd assume there are hefty licensure and training costs, along with the tooling. I'd LOVE to add this skill to my toolbox, I'm not sure I could give it the energy to make it pay.

The concepts are cool as heck to me! I try hard to always stay learning, and obviously there's lots to learn here!

I'd LOVE to know how to use a combustion analyzer. It'd take a lot of the "black art" out of tuning my CB750. . . Hmm . . custom fuel mapping for the company diesels . . .

@Rob: I was trying hard not to take your posts as direct insults until the "ass chapping" comment.

I understand your points and I'm looking for a qualified professional in this neck of the woods to help me out. So I'll bite: What do you suggest if said professional simply cannot be found (i.e. the one who's willing to work with me)? I'm stuck with a non-condensing boiler, with a mixing valve to get the temp down to the floor/up to to boiler? or is the condensation threshold higher than I think? And then the guy still needs to have a combustion analyzer and a clue, right? How 'bout oversizing and short-cycles with a conventional boiler (these I haven't shopped yet, so I'm completely unfamiliar - are there modulating NON condensing boilers)? Mitigated by a boiler-specific 'stat? Is there such thing as a thermostatically controlled (i.e. settable) mixing valve to match heat load?

I'm trying to get my ducks lined up here, that's why I ask questions in the first place. I don't know how to say this without sounding like a cocky jerk, but after 10 years of working directly with the public in a few fields now, I'm not sure I classify as an "average layman." I really prefer to be involved and to know as much as I possibly can, especially now that we own a home. I think I've got a decent head on my shoulders, as well - thanks Dad - and can absorb and process a bit more information than your "average layman."

I understand the need to CYA in these cases as well.

Also, news flash: I'm an ARBORIST (and was a wildland firefighter before that)! I'm into taking (mitigated) risks. I check my tie-in, I make sure my gear is safe, then I take a 50 foot swing from one side of the cottonwood to the other. I'm safe about things, but I'm also not scared to do them. One gets the same thrill from the leap if one has looked beforehand, I find. The only way I'd sue someone for consequences I'd suffered as a result of my own actions would be if the failure was one of unreasonable gear failure (failure due to hidden, poor casting on a spankin' new carabiner, say). The key there is UNREASONABLE. If I made a choice to use a carabiner to rig a 1000 lb. piece of wood out of a tree, I would NEVER go after Petzl - or the distributor, or my trainers, or the co-worker who said "aww, it'll be fine" when the 'biner snapped in half the next time I used it.

As you've repeated your points, I've repeated mine. CLEARLY I'm doing my homework, and I'm trying to find a helpful PRO. Rob, I'VE TAKEN YOUR WARNING TO HEART, trust me! I WAS considering jumping into this thing, slapping it on the wall and going on with my life. But because of your warnings, I've pissed the wife off by pushing the project back further so as to be SURE of the quality of my install. Thank you. Point taken. Movin' on (not ignorin' just movin')

This has been a good, informative and provocative thread for all involved, it seems!

Anybody else need a cigarette?

You made the ass chapping comment initially, I was just playing off it. sorry if it came off wrong, but ultimately I was trying to say while you may not like all the things you are hearing, that doesn't mean you are justified in ignoring them. I felt your ass chapping comment was knee jerk, in other words.

If you can't find anyone to help with this, that is tricky. If you can find someone who can help with something else... cast iron, maybe... with confidence, I'd go with that. with a good control and maybe a small buffer tank and mixing valve, you'd probably get better results than a misconfigured mod/con would give you. You're working the control end here, so that's back in the realm of things you can influence. You can also make sure you are not oversized.

I assume, anyway. If you can't do that, then you need design help as well as boiler help. not calling you an idiot!!!! just covering the bases.

It was kneejerk. I was pretty pissed that evening. Hopefully you saw where I was coming from, though. At the start of this, I honestly didn't know everything I was getting into (i.e. combustion analysis). I'm glad for the information, I just wasn't as glad for the fireworks, initially. It's all about learning, learning, learning.

I'm vehemently against the dumbing down of the public as the environment around us grows increasingly complex. I wish more people were into getting "under the hood." I think it would solve a lot of the money wasting problems BB mentions. There's a MASSIVE sub-division in the southern Denver metro area where the foundations are being repaired FIVE YEARS after construction because somebody neglected to figure out what bentonite does when it gets wet. Spent $1M on a place behind a gate? Forgot to check into the area's soils? Discover your homeowner's policy doesn't cover you for foundation problems in Colorado clay? OOPS!

Being against it doesn't help the problem much, though. Guess all I can do is try not to do it myself . . .

we must tend our garden

hey... 200 homes built here with roof leaks within 5 years... What's that all about????? Crap shingles blown on roofs faster than hell by crack heads... that's what.

Option... Polaris condensing water heater for heat. And forget all the goofy figuring and hand wringing.

aj

To the topic of tools, a home owner does not need the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ tools,
here is an inexpensive combustion analyzer, $373.00
http://www.blueridgecompany.com/documents/L618-C50_C75-PS.pdf
there is some for $2,000.00 on the same page
Also interesting is the little infrared gun about 75.00 point the laser and get a temperature, will work on windows, supply return lines, fine hot spots in the slab and take a read on your cat.

Dan

Now, why would someone buy a $2k analyzer if you can get one that's worth having for $400?

and having a polaris does not free you from needing a licensed gas hookup, supply line and warranty. and I'd recommend some spare igniters while you are at it.

license... gas line license here take 15 minutes at my supplier...
igniters $50 online
no need for CO anylizer
super easy circulator set up
bada bing done.

For me... I prefer TT still
or... really... want to be solar... with super insulated home
aj

you want igniters on hand, not on line. and you're still not free of potential issues. I used to work for a company that sold Polarises. They too are not magic boxes that get installed and never have problems. They may be easier than modulating heat sources to install. I'm not quite sure why you don't need a co2 analyzer though. Regular boilers are not modulating either and they still require co2 analysis to ensure proper burns.

I'm sure that's a lack of information on my case, not being a boiler installer. but I look forward to a real answer with some tech behind it and not a snappy platitude.

easy with the snappy.. why are you so defensive Rob?

I just read the whole Polaris install manual. States clearly that the gas valves are factory set only and that there is no adjusting them onsite.

and yes... igniter onhand is a good idea... also they now use a inline filter for incoming air...and say to raise the water temp a bit to make igniters last longer.

We have oil burners installed in this area and annually they take quite a bit of work and parts servicing. The Polaris igniter replacement is not more costly for us in this area even if done annually.

I like seeing solutions RoB.. I know you do too.. and let's try like all get out to be positive. I definitely enjoy reading all your posts and am learning from you... Where are you.. I'll take you to lunch.
aj

you don't have to verify that they are working properly on site? Again, I am ignorant here, I just don't want the witty banter that doesn't answer the question. My ego doesn't need any help either, but thanks.

I was aware of the water temp fix. I think it's counterproductive to take a condensing heat source and jack the temp up, but I guess that's just me. what is the inline filter doing? I was only aware of a drip issue that fried the igniters.

I am not trying to say the polaris is unusable or anything. I would prefer a Phoenix, but it's better than cast iron. it's just not a DIY panacea.

All natural gas-fired appliances should be tested by an experienced technician using calibrated combustion analyzers.

All propane-fired appliance must be tested whether you can adjust them or not.

We are really getting hung up on having the pros do the heating system. I have installed many systems your way.... that anyone with my amount of knowledge would have. Every single install I do is gone over by the fuel provider. We meet.... ahead of time... plan... I build, they check... they start. If anylizers need to come out of a bag... they do.

It's not so damn hard as you all make it out to be.

It's just as hard to make a perfect pizza at home.. which I will never be able to make as good as my best friend can whip up. If any of you like pizza... homemade... meet me this summer in Northern NJ at my bud's place and bring some cool ones.
aj

I',m outa here.

if you can set up inspection and analysis with the fuel co, great. that satisfies 1 of the 3 conditions I specified.

Personally, I feel a little funny asking the people I buy fuel from whether or not I am running efficiently... as an ad I saw once said, "You wouldn't ask the IRS to do your taxes..."... not that I think they lie, I just don't think they care, and the little details matter. I'd rather have someone independant do it. but that might be unlikely in many areas with a DIY setup. the fuel co is looking at a new customer so it's more likely to work talking to them, definitely. Certainly much better than nothing.