Other boilers do share the controller you are using, I believe. Oddly enough they seem quite capable of malfunctioning in ways far beyond a tech manual's ability to troubleshoot. we have not entered the era of the fully self-controlled boiler yet. When we do, you'll see them back in home depot... remember the contender was in there for awhile? funny how that stopped.

If only lockouts were the only problem. Of course, lockouts are a problem as well... a heat source that stops working can of course cause massive problems in a home beyond cold showers. Cold showers in living space aren't much fun. But I suppose your boiler has never had any problem other than a lockout. truly amazing.

We read manuals all the time. Probably more than you, since we have to work with whatever boiler someone uses, not just the one(s) being sold by our company. Oddly enough, that reading does not make it easy for us to diagnose boiler problems in most cases. We also understand exactly how complicated many issues are, and how easy it is for obscure problems to result in lockouts and the like. the more you try to minimize this the slimier you seem Dan. It's not like I don't have any contact with boilers, I just don't sell them. I know your arguments are full of it here, and I know that you have to know this too unless you just sell 'em and don't take calls when your clients have problems.

When you buy a house in which a builder has a sub put in a boiler, the sub puts in a boiler they are used to. That usually means it's put in competently, and to code specifications, so premature failure is uncommon and if it happens you have recourse. When they do occur, the boiler is under WARRANTY for awhile. If they occur 6 years down the road, and your boiler warranty is not that long, then you might call a service company and pay for the pleasure of fixing the system. but the fact that a LOCAL SUB was used the boiler means:

1. Someone in the area is familiar with the unit in your house. At least the sub.
2. Someone in the area is stocked up with parts for the unit; the wholesaler the sub used. Who would know other service people of that unit in the area.
3. A rep in the area has an interest in making sure your boiler doesn't give him a black eye too.

that's 3 levels of support you know you have access to when a local pro installs a boiler. Even if you didn't hire him. None of that is true with an internet purchased heat source which, unlike tubing, has lot of items in that might fail and require service. that is why DIY tubing makes sense and DIY boilers do not.

Never mind the whole "it could kill you" thing.

But Hey, Caveat Emptor is the name of the game I guess. But I think we can have affordable radiant out there without putting our clients in precarious situations, and when we "fly by night" with combustion equipment, we only give radiant and hydronics a black eye, because 1 bad story will outweigh 10 good ones.

The Anti DYI tear does not hold water.

lets look at your Three leval approch;

1. Someone in the area is familiar with the unit in your house. At least the sub. oh, he is just around the corner I suppose? Or perhaps not....
2. Someone in the area is stocked up with parts for the unit; the wholesaler the sub used. Who would know other service people of that unit in the area. The unknown sub is anticipating what parts the future service tec would need, or want to work with? Would that apply to my 15 year old Valiant oil boiler now not sold in USA?
3. A rep in the area has an interest in making sure your boiler doesn't give him a black eye too. Reps change, products change, what mandates there is a level of consistency here.

We sell boilers here, we diagnose problems with boilers here as best we can and often work with field technicians as needed.
We direct our client to the right factory service person here when we are stumped. We try our best first and usually have success.
At least with a DYI there is a knowledge of the system and function gained. It is not just placed and turned on. The typical DYI will hold a lot better knowledge of there system.
We work with people all over the USA, the ability for our client base to learn, understand, know when they need help is all part of the package. ooooo Buyer be ware....
The constant rant that only a boiler technician is the right choice to install a boiler just does not hold up..... unless required like in Main... unless you live your own life on your own terms, then those rules change again.
As to the it could kill you thing, the bulk of our systems are new construction with rules mandated by building department and install guide lines as published in the manuals.
Where do you keep that unicorn anyway?
Dan

Whether my "tone" was right or not, the "treeguy" got me.

Sorting out the wheat from the chaff is what life is all about. My patience wares thin, as I prefer to get things done while others would wring hands and wonder what the other guy is going to do.

I rarely sell anything that I don’t personally install. I design and install systems for the very wealthy and the very poor, but never for people who strike me as greedy or obtuse. I let people help me install systems, as I most admire those who know how to work. As a professional I decide my client’s safe skill level and never advised any layman to install a gas-fired appliance of any kind, much less a ModCon.

As it turns out the "Treeguy" is my hero is this string.

Mr. Treeguy; please forward a simple drawing of your construction plans. I don't need the work, but understand the problems involved in finding a knowledgeable professional to design AND install a ModCon boiler.

The general lack of knowledge in the hydronic industry is appalling and the result of manufacturer neglect. Though most have technical training schools, the incentive to attend them is near zero. Factory certification and extended warranties is the answer.

there are outlier circumstances in all cases, including professionally installed boilers, but in general if a local put in the boiler you'll have access to parts and personnel familiar with your boiler, in your area, with much less uncertainty than any internet purchase, you have someone to point to if it's horribly wrong, and 2 levels above him who are likely to help correct the problem within driving distance (or the boiler wouldn't be in your house).

I can point to a few rare cases of exceptions too, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a much, much more sure installation that way. There are people with open direct systems out there who are healthy and happy too... that doesn't make it a good idea.

As for your valiant boiler that has run for 15 years. that's a long time. Being able to have a boiler last long enough to outlive its supply chain is exactly the kind of expectation I would have of well installed units.

I have clients who have wrestled with boiler problems FROM YEAR ONE for entire heating seasons that no one will fix or touch. that doesn't even begin to touch the boilers out there that are just a *little off* that will die far earlier than they should have as a result, or that are a small amount off in efficiency such that no one can tell.... but are costing enough in fuel to have paid for a better install in quite a short period of time.

as all us professionals know, there is a lot of junk out there hidden by the fact that no one *really* knows how much fuel they *should* be using.

Again, I love DIY, and characterizing my posts as an "anti DIY rant" is transparent as well. It's just a bad idea with gas appliances. I have *seen* the problems internet boiler purchases can and have caused many people on several occasions, and the only person who would go out and say it's worth it after seeing the problems is the guy selling the boiler in most cases. Any professional with integrity and knowledge of this situation would make the same recommendation I am, which is, DIY whatever you like EXCEPT the boiler installation. it is not worth the savings if there are any problems that must be dealt with, and a not insignificant number of boiler installs will have problems that need to be dealt with.

Interesting you think simply reading a manual is all anyone needs to safely install a gas appliance. I guess the whole idea of gas licensing is archaic now, since it's so easy.

frankly the longer you go on Dan the more disgusted I am with your entire business practice on this and every argument you make just makes it more and more loathsome. You're cherry picking every argument you can to put lipstick on the pig. there is only one time that DIY boiler installs are ok, and that is when a licensed professional has agreed to do the connection and initial testing on the unit... and warranty issues have been clearly delineated up front, in writing.

if that has not happened, the boiler should not be purchased. period.

anyone saying different is selling you something.

OK, Rob; your my hero too.

I am not cherry picking you argument.
We sell product.
We sell a lot of boilers to both professionals and DYI installers.
We support our systems, we see few problems if any with our clients that can not be solved.
We advocate contacting a local gas technician or boiler technician as needed.
The fact that in most areas a hydronic system will run3 times that of a forced is a big issue that a competent DYI can get around.
As a beginning installer I had no school, was not available, I was self taught DYI. My supply houses did not know one product from another, as do many now.
My systems are still charging along, some 20 years later.
At least at our company we select a product group, learn it and design around that group. We understand what we sell.
Sorry if my model is offensive to you.
As I said on the first string of this post group I knew I was stepping in it when I voiced my opinion.
Glad to hear Badger will help tree man, He is on a budget and needs support to do what needs to be done.
Dan

OK Dan;

If you support your product you’re my online boiler hero and I admire the DIY spirit as much as anyone having ate plenty of "pour man's lobster" before I got the real thing.


There are those in this industry - and others- that haven't a clue about the products they sell. Like Rob I understand what a mess these people can make of a persons system/life. If your funds are dear, all the more reason to weigh your options carefully. When designing systems (all over North America) I first perform a heat load analysis for the area and next consider fuel sources and support systems for the appliance being considered.

The "local" support part can have more to do with culture and local marketing than physics e.g. oil may be good for Pennsylvania but not so good in Minnesota where good oil techs are as rare as “honest” online boiler salesman. I, for the most part, have found Dan to be such.

I have installed as a contractor, sold as a wholesaler and manufactured condensing boilers. I have seen many people suffer (both financially and physically) from poor product and workmanship. Having attended, hosted, instructed technical seminars on the benefits of high efficiency boilers, their proper application and installation my enthusiasm stops at DIY design and installation.

One should note that “factory support” - being the most valuable component of any boiler - is non-existent for the DIYer. The reason is simple: the DIYer lacks the fundamental skill-set required to effectively and efficiently install a boiler. This is too often true of professionals, but most have a basic knowledge and technical jargon needed to learn in a reasonable amount of time. As the factory is the entity most likely to be sued when things go south, they have a vested interest in the recommended installation and maintenance of their boilers.

On the most important point of this string I concur with Rob: As I am factory certified on several ModCon boilers (I installed my first low-mass condensing boiler in 1987) I can tell you with great certainty that poor installation leads to poor efficiency, poor reliability and as the installation manuals all point out “ property damage, personal injury or death”.

These are not platitudes.

I also think Rob is having an uncharacteristiclly bad day.

I thought I was the mean one?

heeheehee

Bad day?

I simply think very poorly of those who facilitate poor efficiency, poor operation, and dangerous conditions for mechanical systems. All of which are very real and even likely possibilities with DIY installation. the intrepid DIY'er may not even know that they lost 10% efficiency they could have had... may not even know, when the boiler dies, that it could have lasted ten years longer. They just don't know. No one knew ten years ago or even five years ago when mod/cons were rare. now they are not. now there are people who know, and people who don't.

If you don't know that a licensed professional is testing the unit and making sure the install is good at the very least, you're a predator. that's the math. That is why I do not sell boilers. That is the ONLY reason I do not sell boilers. I made the choice not to go for the easy money specifically for that reason. Because, while we could train up on a boiler line to troubleshoot remotely pretty easily, we still can't ensure that it's up to snuff.

You want bad day? A heroin dealer is selling a product everyone knows is dangerous. At least that is clear and up front. But I'm not seeing any indication from Mr. Dan here that there is any concern whatsoever for a DIY installer, just oh, hey, there are techs everywhere happy to work on your boiler and make sure it's up to snuff, the boilers take care of themselves, nothing to worry about. He's joining the ranks of used car salesmen with that kind of rhetoric.

I think truth in advertising is at least ethically defensible, even if your product is dangerous. If Dan and his crew made sure his customers knew exactly what the possible pitfalls were, and helped the customers figure out how to avoid them by getting them to line up a tech before purchase, etc, I'd feel very differently. But I'm getting just a little sneaky feeling here that is NOT what is happening.

Rob,
you have gone from pink unicorns to heroin in one jump.
I must say I was more comfortable with you when you were on the pink unicorn/rose color pedals view of the world.
You do not know squat about my staff, our efforts our business.
If you would take the time to contact the better business bureau perhaps you would see 2 maybe 3 complaints over the thousands of orders we fulfill.
I would not go so far as to say the boilers are the easy money side of our business, in fact they often require the most support of any item we sell.
It is part of the service we offer.

Again sorry if my model does not work for you,
oh well.
Dan

ModCons should not be sold on the Internet. The evidence is in the title of this very string! It is probably also the main reason for the bad press the Munchkin receives on line. I have had great "luck" with the Contender, which is well supported by my local distributor, but would never recommend it for DIY.

Unfortunately, the alternative seems to be to misapply a "tankless" water heater, (a sure disaster in most cases) so the devil is in every corner. In my own blogs I am often admonished - by folks looking for free advice - not to refer them to a "professional".

In the end, I think most adults get what they deserve. If you can't afford a professional installation, getting a professional to check your work should be standard procedure, regardless of codes, personal pride or intelligence (which should not be mistaken for wisdom). I like to be an advocate for the manufacturer, the distributor, the technician and the consumer; each by his own merits.

Where the online distributor might fit in to this traditional mix is yet to be seen, but your concerns are certainly valid and I spend a considerable amount of time correcting systems sourced through this new avenue, which may prove to be a net loss for the manufacturers that use it.

I bet the Treeguy wishes he hadn't dropped this limb!

heeheehee

why is it some companies always have to point to the BBB as an indication of integrity?

I'm not impressed by the results of a certification company paid by its members. Kind of a conflict of interest there.

all I know dan is what you write. All you have written is glad handing all the concerns with DIY boiler installs. If you guys have a script informing your clients of the risks, explicitly and strongly encouraging them to line up a pro tech prior to purchase, and making sure they understand the possible problems with getting fast service and the kinds of problems that can occur, hey... great! Maybe you guys aren't the predators I suspect.

But your writing certainly does not indicate that is the case. "oh well".

Ok Rob,
First I am not a paid member of the BBB, the $600.00 yearly fee seems a waste, however you can check me up there as this is a consumer report avenue.
Next, you always bring up intelligent points, (short of doing heroin while riding my unicorn with my rose colored glasses listing to who knows what on my I pod)
I like the idea of a line up potential help sheet for boiler purchasers. not bad.
Perhaps we will look at this.
Yes the internet is here to stay, at least I am led to believe, so there is any option to buy what ever you want.... you name it..
yes treeman shook some ripe fruit from the limbs!
Dan

Woah.

Just, woah.

So you guys (Rob and Dan) have gone back and forth for four pages without answering ANY of my questions or addressing the main concern over lack of QUALIFIED professionals in this neck of the woods. You back-easters have lots of old buildings with retrofitted steam and mid-century idealistic hydronic radiant systems and STILL your hydronic-heated housing stock is 6% of homes. I've encountered maybe FIVE houses in this town with water heat. One is a massive apartment building, one is probably worth 5 million in an EXTREMELY exclusive Denver enclave, and the others are my 1948 house and the two identical neighbors - the builder must have admired Levittown. In our 3 month home search, this was the ONLY place with water heat of any kind, let alone in-slab radiant. NONE of my friends or acquaintances -and I'm no shut-in- have hot water heat. Work out the percentages. Forced-air is king. It sucks. It makes NO sense for a business in this town to specialize or invest in any type of training for service techs who'll see a radiant system MAYBE once every five years (yes, I'm pulling numbers out of my ass, go ahead and refute).

"Let the buyer beware" is a lesson I learned the hard way with the FIRST contractor I brought into my home. The certified, licensed, bonded MASTER plumber installed my tankless H20 heater next to a then-functional boiler (indirect who?), put a 75* PVC (not CPVC, nothing remotely approved for potable water) slip fitting on the HOT water line out of said tankless, flushed my hydronic system for a half-hour because "That heating water gets pretty nasty in there" and ran the ugliest damn iron gas line I've ever seen to my kitchen. For all this I wrote him a large check. Months later, after I'd learned a few things, I fixed his screwups on my own time. The contractor whose sticker sits on the dead Raypak in my boiler room installed the bastard pumped backwards (this in 2000, well after - I've come to understand - primary-secondary and "pumping away" were best-practices for copper boilers in y'all's industry) with the freshwater makeup and expansion tank in the wrong place. These guys are one of three companies that even list "boilers" as a service they provide! The point: Even certification by a trade organization doesn't always equate to quality.

I'm a little gunshy on "pros" these days.

@NRT: I also don't accept the idea that because I can't find a mod-con specialist who'll give me the time of day, I somehow need to settle for a less-efficient, shorter-lived boiler that isn't even suitable for my low-temp application. That's the kind of "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" attitude that really chaps my rear. I'm trying to do the right thing on a limited income. Poor doesn't equate to stupid. Just because we don't have money doesn't mean we should have to buy toxic, cheap crap from Walmart.

Furthermore, you paint DIYers with a pretty broad brush. Do you really believe that every homeowner out there is so inept that he/she is incapable of doing the homework and installing and operating a gas appliance safely/efficiently? Clearly I've been doing some reading. I'm more inclined to seek out new knowledge than the "pros" I've encountered and I'm OBVIOUSLY asking for HELP in MITIGATING the hazards I'll have to navigate! If you didn't view your trade as such an arcane art, you might see that my DIY boiler replacement in this town just MIGHT provide incentive and inspiration for people we invite into our home to consider hydronic heat as an option for retrofits or new builds, thus CREATING a Denver market that is currently non-existent! How about instead of talking me down from current technology, you help me install the current/best technology WELL, thus PIONEERING for your specialized trade, making it more financially feasible for contractors to seek out training and certification out here in the Wild West. If you'd come out of your freemason's lodge for a second, you might see the forest despite the trees.

Not all homeowners are idiots. I've waited a year (and a cold-assed winter) before installing this boiler. Clearly this is not a snap decision. I SPLIT my energy supply this year because I didn't want to leap without looking.

With regard to parts support: There IS a retail outfit in Denver dealing with Munchkin Contenders. If you'd payed attention to my previous threads, to which you DID respond, you'd remember that. Besides, it's not so tough to get parts shipped, and if I've got a (more than)basic awareness, a tech and I (assuming he hasn't got his head where the sun don't shine) can put our minds together to work out the differences between my Munchkin and the other Mod-cons he/she's encountered.

@BB: From your earlier post - I KNOW there are specialized skills involved in installing a boiler. I may project confidence in my posts, but it's tempered by the fact that I'm AWARE of my babe-in-the-woods status here. Otherwise I wouldn't be asking questions. I want to LEARN what I lack. I can sweat pipe (replumbed the house with copper and not a single joint leaked), am learning about proper design, and even if I need to purchase a combustion analyzer, I'm willing to LEARN to do the analysis if I can't find someone to do it for me - hopefully it won't come to that. Heck, that would leave me with a tool I can use to tune the carbs and FI on my motorcycles/car other than "by ear." I'll STILL save money - and I'll have another wife-approved toy in the garage!

I'm aware of the warranty issues. It won't be the first time I've voided a warranty because I wasn't scared of my own ability to diagnose problems and turn a wrench. My 2004 CBR was cut off by Honda and the dealership the moment I did my first oil change. DIYers accept a certain amount of risk in doing things outside of "accepted channels." All the more reason to be DAMN sure your work is correct. Shadetree mechanics do a better or worse job depending on their diligence, willingness to learn and access to tools. What makes this different with a boiler? Octane is dangerous, just like nat. gas, and millions of wrench-turners have managed to successfully avoid burning their garages down. Let me re-iterate: Give me a list of potential hazards and let's work out how to MITIGATE them, given the fact I can't find/afford a qualified company here in Denver. Maybe then I'll have a RELIABLE system that won't REQUIRE warranty work! Unless, that is, all boilers are inherently crap and I'm going to have issues regardless of how they're installed.

re: your later posts: I understand the "tone" of our earlier interactions on this forum. You don't know me. Text on a screen is woefully unable to convey inflection, character, personality. You read posts by a DIYer and immediately think of all the DIY jobs you've reported to and had to fix. The "problem clients." Um, those systems were installed wrongly. Have you ever been to a no-heat call on a DIY job that was installed PROPERLY? I'll wager not. I don't get called to prune the trees of homeowners who know what they're doing either. My friends own a house that was landscaped by an amateur horticulturist. Their trees are BEAUTIFUL and they've never been touched by a certified arborist. I'm digressing. I understand your position, and your tone. I've got clients like the ones you've got. The know-it-alls who hire you and then tell you how you should be doing your job. The ones who want you to do something unethical or harmful and can't be reasoned with because "the customer is always right." The ones who messed up their own home and then called you to fix it once things went south.

Sometimes the customer is an idiot.

SOMETIMES, however, the customer is a good person who is genuinely interested in what you're doing. In my field, those clients would like to take control of their home environment by maintaining everything under 10' tall. They ask us how to do it RIGHT and we oblige them. We're not going to sell them the pruning under 10' anyway, and we'd rather see their plants in good shape the next time they bring us back in to prune the 60' maple in the back yard. Knowledge is power. We prefer not to hoard it. They're going to use their power, their friends are going to comment on their landscaping, and they are going to tell their friends about the tree company that was nice enough to help them out, and how awesome it was to have them work on their favorite tree in the yard when they couldn't climb it themselves. They're not in our client pool for the small work, and they'll help us sell the big work as well as the small work elsewhere. This works on an industry level as well. I keep typing in circles, but you fellas have me worked-up.

We've already covered the "skill-set" now let's cover the jargon. Give me a glossary. I love learning new words (yes, and associated concepts and principles). Ask my wife. It drives her absolutely crazy. In a matter of a couple of weeks I've picked up a basic understanding of some jargon involved in near-boiler piping (there's one!). Mod-con, primary-secondary, outdoor-reset, slab-sensor, point-of-no-pressure-change. I'm a sponge, man. Help me out.


Thank you SO much for the offer to look at my design. I'm still working out the details - hence the questions, so once I feel confident I'll draw something up, scan it and send it your way so you can tear it to pieces. I mean that in a good way. Lack of criticism helps no-one. I want holes to be punched in my ideas by better people so I can fill them with stronger material. The other phase of this home upgrade (the insulation) has experienced 6 different iterations in my head already. As I learn more, the design gets stronger. I won't pull the trigger on either of these projects until I'm POSITIVE I'm doing it properly.

To hold you over, I'll reiterate the basics of my hydronic system: The house is 1000 sq. ft. The piping is cast-iron in the foundation slab (no PEX, Dan) and I have no way of knowing where the runs go or how long they are. There are what I believe are balancing valves in the closets. No handles, locknuts, covers, that sort of thing. I'll post pics when our camera gets back from Canon. Counting the valves leads me to believe my system is looped for each room. It is not "zoned" in that the rooms are not separate circuits and the house is run on a single thermostat in the central hallway. The house is small, remember, and laid out around that hallway so the temp there is representative of the general temp.

Backwards-working heat load calculations (Help provided by Dana1 in a previous post) from gas company data (avg. temps correlated to billing periods, yes) revealed that the house has been using approximately 40,000btus/hour under the coldest conditions in my recorded data - pretty close to the worst January on record for Denver. This is a pretty good START at calculating my load and here's why: I'm insulating the house and at LEAST quadrupling the R-value of my walls and slab-edge. My house is already set up to use the smallest boiler in the Munchkin range (which is a small range in itself - sorry Dan, your LAARS is too big, even modulated down). Worry not, I'll be okay in worst-cases: I've decided to go with the 80kbtu unit, since it and the 50k modulate within 1000btus of each other - it also provides me with the option of an indirect water heater if the tankless ever goes TU. My heat transfer will be better than in the past as well, as we tore out the carpet and stained the slab, thus UN-insulating the heat source for the house. More of our heat will now go UP instead of DOWN into the ground. I think the upgrades more than make up for any uncertainty in the data or my calculations. If the earth shifts off its axis and we end up getting -20* winters like Wyoming (remember, it's a dry cold), I've got free hardwood and an EPA wood-burning insert to help me out.

The dead Raypak, which I doubt was sized at all before install, was a 130kbtu in, 114kbtu out copperplate exchanger unit. It was pumped with a Taco 011. It short-cycled and condensed itself to death and started tripping the high-limit and flameout sensor. It lasted 10 years. The previous boiler made it from 1948 to 2000 before becoming a CO issue. I have no idea what that boiler was or how it was installed. The only thing I do know is that it had a cast-iron exchanger.

I hope I've stirred the nest enough at this point to make an impression here. I'm frankly tired of re-posting this information multiple times in every thread. Sorry if it all sounds snide, but y'all aren't really paying attention.


"I bet the Treeguy wishes he hadn't dropped this limb!"

On the contrary, it's been interesting to observe (frustrating, but interesting). Clearly your industry is undergoing some shifting.

I work in a field that's just starting to find its footing with regard to professionalism, certification and continuing education. The discussion here has been fun to reflect back to arboriculture. As I mentioned, we're still regarded as laborers in most circles. There is very little awareness of trees as exceptionally complex and valuable living organisms (in the public as well as in the industry). There is also rare application of modern climbing techniques and basic SAFETY in my field. Our history makes ours the third most dangerous profession in the country - behind commercial logging and fisheries. We're trying like hell to change that, but it's a tough sell when most cities - even in the progressive Front Range - still don't have foresters or require any kind of certification to work. Sub-par tree companies and subs drive insurance rates up, prices down and public perception into the toilet. We're lucky to win bids at $70/hour as a small business, and struggle to break even and maintain equipment, let alone educating and improving employees. Our only hope is to improve PUBLIC knowledge and pray for a general upward trend in quality.

Thank you all, once again, for the help you've provided. I hope I've gotten through to each of you at some point in this post. It's been interesting to observe, but my house is still cold and I'd like to get this thing done sooner than later.

charlie

sorry to bore you with the novel, but I read through the previous 3 pages . . .

the HO's I know with problems are NOT idiots.

You do not have total control over what happens when you install the boiler. Even a pro is hard pressed to diagnose problems sometimes... but they would be on the hook for the time, and expense of fixing the situation. You get a known price when you go pro, as long as you have a reputable guy. when you go DIY, you do not. You are rolling dice and hoping you come out ahead. What happens when you don't? You couldn't afford to do it right the first time, what gets sacrificed when you do have to fix the boiler? food?

I work with top caliber DIY'ers every day. Talented people, people miles smarter than me. I'm not painting DIY'ers with a wide brush at all. I am saying no matter how smart you are, or what you think you know, you do not have the tools, the knowledge, or the access to warranty parts to ensure good, efficient, safe, economical results with a boiler install. You could get lucky, many do (hard to say how many, since they could be running sub par without knowing it, but hey..). but it's quite a roll of the dice and I've seen what happens when the roll does not come up in your favor. It's a nightmare.

you are in a crappy market, I agree. I feel your pain. I help people in your situation all the time, in fact if it weren't for your situation I probably wouldn't have much of a job. and I still wouldn't sell you a boiler.

and I also think that you would be better served with a lesser boiler, installed. That might "chap your ass", but I think your ass needs chapping. the best boiler in the world does you no good if it's not configured, installed, or tested properly.

it's a bad gamble, plain and simple.

now IF you have a tech who will test the unit (and that you think is actually competent): IF that is already set up: IF you know you can even get parts if needed, then maybe you could do this. However, you better think long and hard about what happens when you find out you've got a bad fan. Are you under warranty? is it in writing? if not, think twice. then think again. most manufacturers have written right in their warranty that it's only valid if installed by a qualified person. So your reseller has to offer you their own warranty.

IF then, it is, then hey; you're all set, you've got pro oversight, you've got supply chain, you've got warranty. go nuts. you won the game.

anything less is.... very simply... a mistake. That doesn't mean you're an idiot, or anyone else is. It simply means you're gambling, and I would never help someone in your position make that kind of a gamble, because I would consider it totally against my ethics to do so, knowing full well what kind of hurt you can be in for if something totally beyond your ability to control happens, or if you just happen to miss some detail that is very obscure to you but common knowledge to someone who does gas, and/or boiler installs all day.

Unfortunately, figuring out the in-slab plumbing and the flow rates you need given what's already cast in concrete and never coming out isn't a design-by-forum or design-by-website kind of deal. It probably requires on-site testing and some educated guesses, maybe even a thermal camera to sort it all out.

The dead RayPak probably could have gone decades (as would other "glorified pool heaters" like the Laars) if it had been plumbed & controlled to return water to the boiler at 110F or above, but may have been selected for it's (relatively) low temp tolerance as compared to cast iron but then subsequently abused. Or it could have been a maintenance issue, or just plain short-cycled itself to an early grave due to some system design flaw- it's hard to say for sure not having seen it in operation.

Plumbed primary/secondary with some reasonable design hooks you can make most any boiler run a low-temp zone, but you may (still TBD) be able run this radiation 1-pump with a Munchkin. To be sure its probably easier to design this as primary/secondary, since from a design POV it's dead-easy to design the boiler loop with comfortable delta-T for the Munchkin, then let the radiation loop be "...an exercise left for the hydronic professional", or perhaps in this case "...the hydronic archaeologist." If you sketch something out cleanly with as much of the math as you can apply, and blocks with question marks on the truly-unknowns and present that to whomever you hire to finish the design you're more likely to:

A: Scare away any of those whose hydronic design experience begins & ends with spelling "Plumbing & Heating" correctly on the side of the truck

...and...

B: Develop a collaborative approach with whomever DOES take it on.

It has to be presentable though, no crayons on beer-stained bar napkins or lipstick on bathroom mirrors. A few typed pages with what you know and what you WANT to know, along with partial system schematics, etc should be well enough to start the conversation.

Googling colorado+hydronic+heating returns some hits. When you have your sketch package together call a few, tell them what you have in mind and where you're going with it. Their web presence may be targeted toward the McMansion Radiant & Snowmelt crowd, but near as I can tell CO isn't currently in the middle of another construction boom- somebody will talk to you. Get competing proposals- dig hard to understand them, THEN run it up the flagpole here anything that doesn't make sense. I'm fairly comfortable from prior discussions that an 80MBH Munchkin can fill the bill without being overkill, but the system design & installation will make or break it. But getting a proposal from somebody who's been on-site and kicked the tires on the radiation should give you FAR more information than a WAGs from an internet forum readers.

This doesn't sound like a ridiculously difficult design, but sight unseen is sight unseen- get some professional eyes to at least look at it (even if they opt to "no bid" it), or you may end up paying more to fix it than you would by letting them install it.

Charlie,
you are on the right track,
owning the necessary tools to do the work, good choice.
There is no magic here, you speak to the point, do it.
The whole idea of a super specialist is the only solution, I do not buy that.
You are not building a boiler, or are you?????
Cast iron pipes in the slab, Now this ought to light up the suggestion board.
My questions would be how can I clean those babies, insure the will last another fifty years, You had some clever soul long gone install that one,
I wonder if he went to the school.......naaaa, why would I wonder that.
If you are totally talked of the mod con edge you could do a simple non condensing unit, keep that 0011 in place, primary secondary, and then your boiler cost would be in the under 2 k range, may fit the budget better.
oh well,
Lets all enjoy the week end, I am sure I will have a couple projects to do.
Dan

Charlie and crowd...

My thoughts...

iron pipe... so much iron pipe... to me... I would not hook that up to a non iron heat source.... except via a seperate heat exchanger... also... the iron pipe loop to me should have a good crap/particle collector inline... and add water treatment to slow corrosion.... might be worth flushing pipes... I would have to ask oldtime iron pipe guy about that. But... I really think the weak link here is that old old pipe. Pressure testing... definitely...

mod cons... so far... I like Triangle Tube units... I have heard horror stories about the old Munchkin boilers and of other mod cons... when opened up in as little as 2 years... having way too much crap stuck in hard to clean heat exchangers. The Triangle style exchanger from what I have been told has the least problems of this type... Someone update me if I need to be....

As to all your piping and loops... I think way too many in the field are confusing 50 years or more of different systems to come up with how to do set ups today for mod cons. Myself... prefer not to have 3 loops which is what primary/secondary calls for... along with 3 pumps... and a million isolation valves, a million zones, a million fil valves... crazy.... I do install radiant heat... not a million systems... but have for 20 years... and build homes... the price of homes is going too high in my mind these days.. 'cause we do things like build Rolls Royce million valve radiant set ups of $35,000 boasting how great it is at being efficient.... and how much knowledge we have to install and maintain said Space Shuttle... It is really crap. Heating is no more difficult than carpentry... Come watch me route some nice Maple stair stringers... glue and wedge all together... I taught myself... yes... by learning... asking... reading... attempting... and yes stairs kill just as many as CO... so fo get that argument. Licenses... what a joke... just today.. I read in our local news rag about a nice gorgeous house... homeowner GC... pro subs used, pics show it is super... also show this NEW house to have an illegal non code stair rail... with greater than 6" space between it and open treads... bragging about the beautiful cusom welded railing.... definitely checked and let go by building inspectors... who must have seen it at least twice... Not a perfect world out there by any stretch of the imagination.

Lastly... this thread should be wrapped up... and restarted... with solutions and advice.. start a separate thread for those that want to talk about internet sales and start a separate thread for those who want to heckle DIYers.\

it is after 5... time for all to grab a Sam Adams.
aj

Cast Iron: Yup. pretty lame. Our home inspector's reaction was: "Well, if it goes bad you can always install baseboard heat". Blech. Doesn't seem so rotten at this point (not being able to actually see the inside of the pipes, that is). Flush water when we re-started the Raypak was black, but didn't seem like it had TOO much scale or sediment in it. I had wondered about inline filtration and whether that was even an option . . . I'd never mess with a bike's fuel system without installing a filter . . . It was pressure tested to 60psi during the home inspection, so we're good there. It LOOKS like 1" pipe at the balance valves, just fyi, but I've mis-identified pipe diameters (on the galvanized potable pipes) once already.

Reasoning for the mod-con is: lower temp compatible with our slab heat in a less complex system, lower energy cost over time - which in this town means a good boost in resale, hippy-ness, space constraints and extreme ease of flu-ing the thing. Dunno if I'm talked down. I'm one of those sometimes referred to as an "early adopter."

Further searching reveals that two wholesalers and 3 retailers close by do Munchkins in general and contenders in particular. Got the supply chain covered there. I've got two hydronic specialists from up north contacted (the third is 2 hours from me but if it comes down to that . . .) to come do a little detective & design work. How does flow-testing work? Hook up a pump and a flow-meter and close the loop? Good thing I've left the purge and fill valves in place for now, should make things a snap!

Dana: Do you know much about the Taco Delta-T computer controlled circulator? Evidently they use two sensors to measure Delta-T across the boiler and adjust flow to match the spec you've set. Functional? Reliable? Spankin-new and untested?

Now HERE's a question: If I can get my hands on a thermal imaging camera, will I be able to see the piping effectively? Clearly, the heat will have to be back up by then, but it'd be cool to have something to hand off to the next owner if we sell this place. I've got a good friend in West Metro Fire, and I'm sure they've got one or four. Whether he can pry it out of the Bat. Chief's truck is another question . . . Maybe the chief can come out himself! They LOVE playing with those damned toys!

Simple is preferred, but not priority. A boiler that's not gonna die is the priority. I'll do what is necessary to end up with the most set-and-forget system possible.

thanks all, it's been a long but good weekend, and it's getting cold again. Cross yer fingers I'm able to find someone worth their salt to come help me out in person. You've all been more helpful than you know, and it's been an informative discussion!

@Rob: I know your opinion on DIY install. You've made it abundantly clear. Duly noted. I don't appreciate being spoken to as if I were a child ("your ass needs chapping?" Really? Patronize much?). You don't know me, my mechanical ability, or my level of competence. Furthermore, I'm on a low income, not financially irresponsible. What happens when the car breaks down? What about when there's a leak in the roof? We make it work. That's what happens. We don't sacrifice food. If we were at that point, we probably wouldn't own a home (and I'd hope we wouldn't have qualified for the loan). We'll make this work as well. I stated that I was willing to get the tools, knowledge and parts support necessary. Your reply indicates you already view me as incompetent. Maybe it's time for you to wash your hands of this discussion. You're not on any hood and I'll not be kicking down your door if something goes wrong. I hope I can prove you wrong at the end of this.

charlie

Missing the point again.

This thread has not been about heckling, but rather, about an honest difference of opinion on who should install gas-fired appliances. It was an honest and useful exchange (admittedly having little to do the nonexistent thermal shock concern for Munchkin Contenders). It could be said that two online competitors took the thread into an uncharacteristic, personal, competitive direction, but I was able to come to my own conclusion about all involved. It was good for me.

As for iron pipe and small path heat exchangers, you bring up another valid point that most DIYers and professionals alike, will likely not consider. That is, distribution system contaminants including solid particulates, rust flakes etc. which can be a problem. There are many ways to address this concern. Though the TT boilers are quite good, passing larges chunks of anything but water through a hydronic heating system, is not a good idea, regardless of the boiler choice, since pumps are the week link and will not tolerate solids for long.

It should be noted that many ModCons come with pumps that are up to 5 times larger than they need to be. This fact coupled with the nearly universally accepted “suggested” practice of operating all in a primary/secondary fashion often means both system and boiler will be over-pumped. Two outcomes are common; first the distribution system will see higher (perhaps erosive) water velocities than ever, perhaps dislodging long settled rust etc. and two; the boiler itself may suffer from velocity too high for the heat exchanger. Noise is your first clue.

Flushing the system is my first choice, followed by circulating a boiler-cleaning agent. This should not be done on a routine basis by the way.

Since iron pipe will not pass oxygen, the inside of the pipe is likely to be perfect along with the water therein. The outside of steel pipe on the other hand, whether imbedded in concrete or under it, may suffer over time. A boiler incorporating outdoor reset (all ModCons) will diminish the thermal stress, increase system efficiency and make a condensing boiler more efficient.